Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Alex · 2006-08-04 07:03:22

Hola a todos,

I've been thinking about something and I wanted to know what others think.

I read that there are certain people who breathe always with their stomach (diaphragm) and others just with the lungs. Considering we need to blow from the stomach and use a lot the diaphragm to play Shakuhachi, would someone who is used to breathe with the stomach, and supposedly have that part of her/his body more developed, find it easier to learn Shakuhachi, or even excel at it? Do people who breathe exclusively with the lungs (expanding the chest) have a harder time learning because they have to get their body used to use a part of the body that has been largely ignored? Would it be desirable if you are a lung-breather to focus hard on teach your body to breath always (at work, while walking, anytime) using the diaphragm so you develop that part of your body unconsciously even when you are not playing?

See, I've heard of the importance of breathing techniques to play Shakuhachi, but I've never heard of anyone saying that you should try to switch your breathing mode to play better. I heard also that diaphragm breathing is even better for health! Is it possible to train your body to breathe in a different way?

Just wondering

edosan · 2006-08-04 10:01:23

Alex wrote:
Considering we need to blow from the stomach and use a lot the diaphragm to play Shakuhachi, would someone who is used to breathe with the stomach, and supposedly have that part of her/his body more developed, find it easier to learn Shakuhachi, or even excel at it? Do people who breathe exclusively with the lungs (expanding the chest) have a harder time learning because they have to get their body used to use a part of the body that has been largely ignored? Would it be desirable if you are a lung-breather to focus hard on teach your body to breath always (at work, while walking, anytime) using the diaphragm so you develop that part of your body unconsciously even when you are not playing?

Yes.

Ambi · 2006-08-06 19:56:13

Hi Alex, I'm a bit disapppointed by the lack of response on this topic so I thought I'd throw my tupennce worth in. Bear in mind I'm a new commer to Shakuhachi too, but I have been breathing for a while.

All breathing is lung breathing, what matters is the set of muscles powering the in and out breaths. Think of the torso as devided in 3, below the navel, navel to base of ribs, and chest.
"Standard Western - lung" breathing uses the intercostal muscles between the ribs to expand the rib cage and fill the lungs, the out breath is pretty much relaxation off these muscles only. The Top of our three sections.
Diaghragmatic breathing. Using muscle floor at the base of the rib cage to pull the lung space downwards, filliing the lungs. Often this ends up using the Middle of the three sections.

Practise. BREATH OUT. Really, all the way, feel your ribs empty, then stomach untill finally you are reaching down to the lower abdominal muscle floor. THEN breath in slowly filling the whole torso from the bottom up. Its very usefull to count in and out breaths. Start equal (4,4) but increase the out time faster. As important is to Pause between in and out breaths (no gasping!); so really it' more like (4,4,4,4) then may be (8,4,12,4) etc. For playing just use the bottom two sections?
Watazumis thing was "Blowing Out". Control of this long slow out breath is central to any "esoteric" meditational breathing system.
Once you start practising you develope a greatly increased proprioceptional awareness (Chi, Ki, Kundalini) of the breath - It starts making sense to talk about breathing up the front and down the back (or vice versa), and even breathing up into the neck and head.
Then we start getting into where "energy" and breath differ, or not. One of the keys to "esoteric" breathing is that the tip of the tongue if placed on the roof of the mouth to facilitate to the return of "Energy" from the top of the head. Not sure how this relates to Shakuhachi though?

Hope this is of some help, maybe it will inspire some usefull comment on THE reason that shakuhachi is not just another wind instrument.
Keep On Breathing.
Ambi

Google is your fiend.

Karmajampa · 2006-08-06 20:12:34

I find the standing posture best facilitates deep stomach breathing.
I also blow shakuhachi in other postures.

Kel.

Seth · 2006-08-06 20:51:29

Not that I am such an expert either...but here are my two cents on this topic.

For a while I was a chest breather (someone taught me at a young age to always suck in my gut...I think it was some gym teacher...) My shaku teacher repeatedly told me to breath from the stomach - have the tummy come way in and out as opposed to the chest.

It took a few months of effort and now I breath from the stomach.

A few things changed for the better in my playing but the biggest difference is that by sticking my gut out when I breate in I can fill my lungs much faster than by expanding my chest. Also, when expanding my chest I would let out a soft but clearly audible wheezing sound. By inhaling quickly through stomach expansion there is no sound whatsoever. It is a a very important change for the better.

But this is more detail than is needed. As Edosan wrote above "Yes." When it comes to shakuhachi and breathing: All stomach all the time.

jumbuk · 2006-08-07 02:43:19

Without wanting to be overly picky ...

Your stomach is a bag that receives food ingested through the mouth. It has nothing to do with breathing (other than the fact that a full stomach makes it harder to breath!).

Your lungs are bags that suck in air and push out a mix of predominantly carbon dioxide.

What you are calling "lung" breathing is probably "chest" breathing - I remember my school teachers telling us to breath in and fill our chests.

Similarly, "stomach" breathing is really "diaphragm" breathing - using the diaphragm to create space in the lower abdomen to allow the lungs to expand further downwards. It's diapragm breathing that the shakuhachi promotes and benefits from.

Ambi · 2006-08-08 14:29:35

Ah .. Words and terminology, what fun.
I came accross this today, maybe not Zen, but the guy is a master and all the advise great.
http://www.snakedavis.com/exercises.html
Apart from the physical aspects of breathing (I still think its important to get the lower portion of the abdomen (stomach ??) moving as well as "the diaphram"), I'm very curious as to peoples views on Ki\Chi and Hara\Tan Dien development and whether it has a role in Shakuhachi.

Cheers Folks
Ambi
" ... seperated bya common language."

jumbuk · 2006-08-08 19:00:24

Ambi wrote:
Ah .. Words and terminology, what fun.
I came accross this today, maybe not Zen, but the guy is a master and all the advise great.

Thanks Ambi, there were some useful ideas in there.

Alex · 2006-08-10 04:15:57

Hello everybody,

Sorry for not answering before but I ve been in bed for a few days due to some health problems.

Anyway, thank you all for your input in the subject, I think it is an important issue regarding Shakuhachi blowing that to me does not seem to be stressed enough; at least I dont see it mentioned as often as I think it should. The other day for example, a friend was desperately trying to make a sound with the Shakuhachi and when I told him, blow with your stomach, a clear sounding tone just appeared! He was delighted.

It s good to hear you can actually learn to breathe differently, not only becasue of Shakuhachi but becasue as I mentioned before it seems it s even healthier (thanks Ambi for that great input!).

Hope you are all doing great

Mucha salud a todos

Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

#1 2006-08-04 07:03:22

Stomach breathing

#2 2006-08-04 10:01:23

Re: Stomach breathing

Alex wrote:

#3 2006-08-06 19:56:13

Re: Stomach breathing

#4 2006-08-06 20:12:34

Re: Stomach breathing

#5 2006-08-06 20:51:29

Re: Stomach breathing

#6 2006-08-07 02:43:19

Re: Stomach breathing

#7 2006-08-08 14:29:35

Re: Stomach breathing

#8 2006-08-08 19:00:24

Re: Stomach breathing

Ambi wrote:

#9 2006-08-10 04:15:57

Re: Stomach breathing

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