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#1 2010-02-22 14:59:18

pdqriley
Member
Registered: 2010-02-22
Posts: 2

Why when thumb

I have a four hole pent minor flute that overblows it's octave easily with NO fifth or thumb hole. My question is why is there a thumb hole and were there early shakuhachi that had only four holes?-P. Riley

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#2 2010-02-22 19:05:35

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Why when thumb

pdqriley wrote:

I have a four hole pent minor flute that overblows it's octave easily with NO fifth or thumb hole. My question is why is there a thumb hole ...

Atari's and other grace-note-like embellishments come to my mind first.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#3 2010-02-23 01:07:01

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Why when thumb

radi0gnome wrote:

pdqriley wrote:

I have a four hole pent minor flute that overblows it's octave easily with NO fifth or thumb hole. My question is why is there a thumb hole ...

Atari's and other grace-note-like embellishments come to my mind first.

Meh, way down on the list.
That fifth hole is a huge addition to the sound color capabilities of the instrument: Without it there'd be no"I", and all the other pitches that wrap
around that area. Quite a few added pitches, equivalent to pitches elsewhere on the flute, but with very different color.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#4 2010-02-23 02:55:56

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Why when thumb

No Koro Koro either.


Pitch is the 'same' but tone and timbre and everything else about the sound differs, including the way it is blown, IME.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#5 2010-02-23 05:52:03

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Why when thumb

No Ha-(ra)-Ro.

sad


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#6 2010-02-23 20:29:16

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Why when thumb

But it is very interesting that the fifth hole is there at all to double the octave (unnecessary melodically), while a couple of extra finger holes that would make some very difficult notes easier to play are missing, leaving a bunch of fingers out of work. The Japanese are weird people...

The Okuralo (in my avatar) is an excellent idea; too bad WWII got in the way of its continued manufacture sad

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2010-02-23 20:30:10)

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#7 2010-02-23 21:38:09

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Why when thumb

Toby wrote:

But it is very interesting that the fifth hole is there at all to double the octave (unnecessary melodically), while a couple of extra finger holes that would make some very difficult notes easier to play are missing, leaving a bunch of fingers out of work. The Japanese are weird people...

The Okuralo (in my avatar) is an excellent idea; too bad WWII got in the way of its continued manufacture sad

Toby

However, as edosan already said,  the I and kan-Ro are quite different in terms of tone color. Japanese shakuhachi music would be far poorer and less interesting with only one of those options.

Same thing with the "missing holes."

7 and 8 hole shakuhachi might be more convenient, but essential tone colors are lost from the music.

I mean ...  listen to THIS !!!!


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#8 2010-02-23 22:08:26

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Why when thumb

Toby wrote:

But it is very interesting that the fifth hole is there at all to double the octave (unnecessary melodically), while a couple of extra finger holes that would make some very difficult notes easier to play are missing, leaving a bunch of fingers out of work. The Japanese are weird people...

The Okuralo (in my avatar) is an excellent idea; too bad WWII got in the way of its continued manufacture sad

Toby

Or you could play slide whistle and get every interval without even having to use any fingerings. wink

Isn't a silver flute with one of Monty's headjoint adapters basically the same as an Okuralo?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#9 2010-02-24 00:40:17

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Why when thumb



Toby, I'm shocked, SHOCKED!


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#10 2010-02-24 02:19:14

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Why when thumb

I visited Monty last year and we put the Okuralo head to head (so to speak) with a shakulute, and yes, they are basically the same instrument. I have some nice Ifugao nose flutes from the Philippines with only three holes, and they make their own brand of music, it must be said.

I'm not arguing for a more rational fingering system for the shakuhachi, I am merely pointing out that interesting choices were made at some point in its development. I wonder if the honkyoku is a result of the limitations of the flute, or vice versa...

And of course it must be said that what the shakuhachi lacks in holes, it more than makes up for in tonal expression. The recording of Rampal playing Japanese music on his gold Haynes would be laughable if it weren't so pitiful...

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#11 2010-03-10 14:43:20

unicorn
Member
Registered: 2010-03-09
Posts: 1

Re: Why when thumb

I suggest Atari only, its enough i dont want to say anything over it.

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