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#1 2006-02-25 08:32:41

zenguy432
Member
Registered: 2006-02-20
Posts: 4

Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Hi Everyone,

My main interest in the shakuhachi is as an aid to my meditation practice. I don't own one, and I've only spent  a grand total of about 8 hours blowing on a 1.6 that someone lent me. Still, it effected me deeply and I want to explore it further. So now the question is which size to choose! I was going to go for the 1.8 but changed my mind when I read an article written by Perry Yung that said that anyone using the shakuhachi solely for suizen should skip the 1.8 and go to the longer flutes instead. I'd like one with a deep mellow sound but not one that sounds like a fog horn. I'm thinking about a 2.1 or a 2.3. What do you guys think? I'd appreciate any advice you could give me. Thanks, Steve

P.S.  In case anyone is interested. I've been practising vipassana since 1979 and spent 5 years as a monk in southeast asia. Thanks again

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#2 2006-02-25 10:23:27

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

zenguy432 wrote:

Hi Everyone,

My main interest in the shakuhachi is as an aid to my meditation practice. I don't own one, and I've only spent  a grand total of about 8 hours blowing on a 1.6 that someone lent me. Still, it effected me deeply and I want to explore it further. So now the question is which size to choose! I was going to go for the 1.8 but changed my mind when I read an article written by Perry Yung that said that anyone using the shakuhachi solely for suizen should skip the 1.8 and go to the longer flutes instead. I'd like one with a deep mellow sound but not one that sounds like a fog horn. I'm thinking about a 2.1 or a 2.3. What do you guys think? I'd appreciate any advice you could give me. Thanks, Steve

P.S.  In case anyone is interested. I've been practising vipassana since 1979 and spent 5 years as a monk in southeast asia. Thanks again

Long jinashi flutes are wonderful for meditation practice. 2.1 and 2.3 are medium length flutes (in my opinion) and 2.7 and up are long. However any flute can be a good meditation tool. Bamboo shakuhachi are individual.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2006-02-28 20:25:23

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I'd go with the 2.3.  I play both lengths frequently but the longer length flute has a more meditative feel for me.  Then again, I have little experience with longer flutes or with jinashi instruments (one of these days....)  Some people have difficulty playing lengths over 2.4 as the distance between finger holes increases, and the technique needed to play longer flutes is a bit different from that used with medium length instruments.  The most common lengths of shakuhachi in use in Japan are 1.6-2.4.  It would be interesting to know the relative percentages of Japanese players/foreign players practicing with lengths over 2.4; I'm guessing that there is a higher percentage of foreign players using the really long instruments.  I've got a 2.5 but rarely play it as it puts a bit of a strain on one of my hands.  On the other hand, some players -- John Kaizan Neptune, Akikazu Nakamura, Tairaku (and others) --  are comfortable using much longer flutes.

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#4 2006-03-01 00:25:18

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I'm not a big guy, so playing bigger flutes is harder for me, but I've found a way to play the holes in such a way so that I can have the holes at the proper distances, but placed around the flute so I can reach them. It's pretty particular to my hand size and flexibility, but it sure does work for me. I had a good diameter 2.5-ish (that I later ruined), and it became more comfortable for me to play it with my right hand kind of facing...well, down, in a strange way, with my thumb covering Tsu, and my index finger covering Re. I dont' think I've ever seen any photos of anyone else playing like this, and I don't know if it's kosher, but I just love the sound of the deeper, breathier mediatation sizes. I'm going to make a 2.4 soon, and I'll probably make a 2.6, 2.8, and, if I can find just the right diameter, a 3.0.

I've been listening to RNS's Komuso CD, and loving all of the deeper pieces. I even like the sound of the 2nd octave, since it's still so deep and gentler than the average 1.8. The longer flutes really do feel more like an extension of my breathing than smaller, thinner flutes.

So, if you're collecting recordings like I am, you might be getting a feel for what sizes you like to hear as well. I pay attention to what sizes are being played, and I love it when players put that info in thier liner notes. There are certain pieces that I feel kind of lose something when they're played on anything but a 2.3-4 or below, like Tamuke or Hon Shirabe, for example. Maybe that's a bad approach, but there's something more medatative about those pieces when played on longer flutes, at least to me.

Hope my babbling helps.

-Eddie


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#5 2006-03-01 01:29:59

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I have a Perry Yung 2.5, which I love.  He has sold many reasonably priced longer flutes through his ebay shop.

Perry's home site has some good tips and photos for fingering the larger flutes.  By angling the RH and using the fleshy mid-joints to cover holes, you can generally finger these flutes comfortably.  I use the index and little finger on my LH.  I don't find any problems switching to the index/ring finger arrangement for the shorter flutes - it becomes automatic.

In fact, I find the RH fingering of antique wooden (european) flutes harder on my fingers.  If you are struggling to finger a larger shakuhachi, you should probably just stop and rethink your fingering to find the most efficient way of covering all the holes.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#6 2006-03-01 04:08:56

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Ahhh, long flutes! I am fortunate to own some of Perry's long flutes, 2 of which are 942+mm and 1012+mm and play e and e-flat. He also made a drone of 1066+mm which gives a nice d. Someday I'll get brave (or stupid) and punch holes in it. I play them daily (at last count 425 consecutive days), but some days ya just gotta scream, and that's what I use the shorter flutes for. That's when Perry's 393+mm (f#) hocchiku comes into play. So, I tend to go with the flute(s) that meet *my* needs,  and not be very concerned about anything else, because, just who am I doing this for, anyway? 8^)
Regards to all,
Bruce


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#7 2006-03-01 19:18:17

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I do not see how the length of a shakuhachi has anything at all to do with suizen. You are either in the moment when you blow or you are not.


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#8 2006-03-01 21:40:34

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

...second that.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#9 2006-03-02 11:53:00

jb
Member
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Hi.

Call me stupid, call me naive.  Do whatever you want.  But I have never been able to be any where but in the moment, whether I was blowing or not.  Show me how to be 20 again and retain my present knowledge and I'll take my hat off to you.  I have been stupid and day-dreamed when life was before me, but I was day-dreaming in the moment of my dreaming.

There's a lot of metaphorical language relating to the flute in general and to the shakuhachi in particular which gets taken literally.  A metaphor is a figure of speech, a poet's lie.  Basing my life on a lie has always seemed counter intuitive to me.  Call me stupid, call me naive. 

jb

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#10 2006-03-02 19:02:00

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I do not think I would call you anything except possibly jb.

For me, suizen…blowing meditation with any kind of instrument…and zazen…sitting meditation where I just sit and breath…and “walking meditation” (don’t know the name of that one)…where I just walk and breathe, preferably in a circle with no intended destination…all serve essentially the same purpose. I try to still the voices in my head and simply be aware of what is at that moment. This is not an easy task for me.

Meditation is not the only reason I play the shakuhachi.  I loved it’s sound for more than 25 years before I ever tried to play it. There is much joy in just making such beautiful sound myself, especially on shakuhachi I have created.


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#11 2006-03-07 07:22:19

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

jamesnyman wrote:

I do not see how the length of a shakuhachi has anything at all to do with suizen. You are either in the moment when you blow or you are not.

Nevertheless many people prefer long flutes for meditation. Watazumi mentioned that people get excited by the tones of a 2.0 playing Sanya, but that it's deeper and more meditative to play it on a 2.8.

It would be interesting for a scientist or doctor to measure the brain waves and other vital functions of the same player playing the same piece on short and long flutes and see if there is any difference.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2006-03-07 16:50:27

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

jamesnyman wrote:

I do not see how the length of a shakuhachi has anything at all to do with suizen. You are either in the moment when you blow or you are not.

True.  Nevertheless, if you are going to choose a flute for the purpose, do you choose randomly?  Whilst I am not a Zen adept, and Zen had little to do with me taking up shakuhachi, my own experience does support the longer flutes being more attuned to the deep breathing associated with zazen.  I should say "even more attuned" so as not imply that a shorter flute won't do.

To take the point further, I would argue that a shakuhachi is more useful for suizen than say a live fish or a bucket might be.  But then, maybe not?


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#13 2006-03-07 23:21:49

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Most of my experience with zen and breathing deeply comes from years of running, not from playing the shakuhachi.

I did not mean to imply that person should choose shakuhachi length randomly. I certainly do not do that when choosing the shakuhachi I play. And if many people prefer longer shakuhachi for meditaion they should, by all means, play longer shakuhachi. It seems to me that one should in, all cases, choose a shakuhachi which fits one physically and spiritually.

I do find it interesting that during the period when most early honkyoku were composed there were almost no chokan and a shakuhachi of even 2.1 length was a rarity. Probably most of the komuso were simply confused and knew little or nothing about suizen.


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#14 2006-03-08 00:39:10

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

jamesnyman wrote:

Probably most of the komuso were simply confused and knew little or nothing about suizen.

I wonder what length is more appropriate as a weapon?


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#15 2006-03-08 07:18:53

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

jamesnyman wrote:

I do find it interesting that during the period when most early honkyoku were composed there were almost no chokan and a shakuhachi of even 2.1 length was a rarity. Probably most of the komuso were simply confused and knew little or nothing about suizen.

I have an Edo period 2.7. It has a wide bore and small holes. It appears to be unique, nobody else has ever seen anything like it. But at least it proves they existed.

Riley Lee told me that there were always people playing long flutes. But that these have not come down to us because the people who played that way didn't live in the city, they were doing their training in nature, caves, etc. The shakuhachi which have come down to us are the ones passed in families from generation to generation. I don't know where Riley got this information, but he's a knowledgeable guy.

The Tani ha, which is a group of komuso style players use 2.6 almost exclusively. On the other hand Myoan Shinpo Ryu have a tendency towards short flutes, even shorter than 1.8. Their music sometimes has rhythm and a minyo influence.

Obviously we know that the shakuhachi developed out of the hitoyogiri, which was 1.1 in length (A pitch). And the name shakuhachi refers to the 1.8 length. So we can assume that the original shakuhachi music was written and performed on flutes between 1.1 and 1.8 in length. By the way most Edo period 1.8's are in the pitch of C# or a bit higher, not D.

It appears that the trend towards long flutes is mainly a 20th century thing. In a place as conventional and tradition oriented as Japan, that leaves the question "why?" did this idea develop. To this day the majority of shakuhachi players in Japan play nothing but 1.8.

Another observation is that when people use long flutes they tend to do so for purposes of honkyoku. 1.8 is still the instrument of choice for sankyoku and shinkyoku.

I find that producing and sustaining tones on long shakuhachi takes more energy and brings the diaphragm into play more. In other words to play the same tune, let's say "Choshi",  on 3.0 rather than 1.8 requires more physical effort, which in turn produces more focus and concentration in a breathing sense. On the other hand playing in tune is more difficult and the out of tuneness is magnified the shorter the flute. Listening for pitch is more crucial.

That's why I like to play a variety of shakuhachi. They train different aspects.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2006-03-08 20:33:45

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

jumbuk wrote:

jamesnyman wrote:

Probably most of the komuso were simply confused and knew little or nothing about suizen.

I wonder what length is more appropriate as a weapon?

jumbuk...a very good point! I have never trained in martial arts or used a shakuhachi as a weapon. Perhaps longer shakuhachi were not a functional when used as weapons by former samurai turned komuso monks.

Tairaku...I did not mean that chokan were nonexistant. Only that most surviving examples are in the 1.8-2.0 range. As you say, that may reflect the tendency of city players to pass down their shakuhachi where as mendicant monks' longer shakuhachi may have fallen by the wayside when they died, especially if the komuso tended to make their own shakuhachi for spiritual reasons.

It does seem that the modern trend toward using longer shakuhachi for honkyoku has been spurred on by Watazumido and his disciples...not a good thing, not a bad thing, just a trend.

It would probably be difficult to conclude anything from brain wave patterns of the same player playing both long and short shakuhachi, especially if the subject knew she/he was participating in the study and had some opinion about the outcome.

I still do not see how the length of the shakuhachi used has any realtionship to suizen, but maybe that is just "sour grapes" on my part since my arthritis and carpal tunnel makes it painful for me to play much over a 2.1 :-)


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#17 2006-08-14 12:11:46

Anthony
Member
Registered: 2006-08-10
Posts: 23

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

So, what size flute did you choose and howz it going?

I went through the same decision making process for the exact same reason and ended up with a 2.4.

Just curious.

Thanks,

Anthony

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#18 2006-08-14 14:30:51

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Perhaps it would help to consider one's intent regarding meditation. Some may see it as a means to 'slow down', others a means to 'focus attention'. I like to think meditation is being present in every moment, whether that moment includes a 2.4 or a 1.4 or pulling air into my belly or the moment before I blow.

Kel.     §


Kia Kaha !

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#19 2006-08-14 17:04:56

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Or eating dinner, for that matter...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#20 2006-08-14 18:08:45

Harry
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
Website

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Don't play the flute, burn it, or bow to it. Can't it all be the one when we're practising?

When you're 'in the zone' where's the flute? Where's the music? Does the universe care what size flute is creating it?

With all respect to the masters, where practice is involved, why not try totally disregarding everything they ever said... and EVERYTHING else. Buddha only sees endless possibilites in the endless details, it may be an interesting experiment to just let them all dissolve, relax, and wish them well as you blow them into the womb of the void.

I wonder what the bodhisattvas thought of as they played? They are here to ask of course... at least so 'they' say.

On a more practical note :-)) I like to think of the complete insubstantiality of all matter when I debate details with myself (I'll avoid my rather poor understanding of the modern science). We're all going the same way as you're next note, just very slightly slower. What's the master's thoughts on this flute or that actually made off, and where did it go???

On a positive note (ahem), its probably as 'easy' to control the way in which we go into the richness of the void as it is to develope the intuitions to be able to give musical notes a decent send off. I suppose they are complimentary in some way.

In the spirit of compounding matters and wishing you the very best,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#21 2006-08-14 18:57:19

evan kubota
Member
Registered: 2006-04-10
Posts: 136

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Whatever works for you - I don't meditate but I do try to pay attention to everything. I've been playing a 2.6 jinashi that I made more than my other flutes. I love the sound and feel.

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#22 2006-08-14 20:49:46

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I agree with everyone! (Everything Is True...)
My best experiences with "Blowing Zen" have been in an abandoned airraid shelter with an empty wine bottle. Blowing on a bottle that size gives a great deep resonant "Ro" and you can bend it around a fair bit. On a smaller (say beer?) bottle I can get  more  notes and effects, but  the  bigger the bottle  the better when it comes to Just Doing It.
I find some of the Binaural Beats \ Brainwave Entrainement theory interesting. Its fairly well known that these acoustic effects are produced by Shakuhachi duets, I wonder about the beats produced when a note is breaking?
And I ended up starting with a 2.4, just to get that sort of a sound. No regrets - except now I know I want to learn more than just to blow so I need a 1.8; and I've got big hands and really big sound so awesome and an E would be so usefull ...

Hope all is well in your worlds.
Ambi
I don't meditate but I do try to pay attention to everything -Love It


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#23 2006-08-14 21:41:49

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I have always been skeptical about the connection between meditation and shakuhachi.  Yes, the shakuhachi was the instrument of choice of a group of monks from a meditative tradition - but why couldn't they just as easily of picked up the violin or clarinet as a meditative tool?  The shakuhachi - meditation connection always struck me as more a historical accident than anything else.

But, just recently, I have become a convert to the unique meditative power of the shakuhachi.

Why? A few reasons.

1) I finally really appreciate how much patience it takes to play honkyoku well.  It is very easy to play one phrase and to already get lost mentally in the next phrase.  But I've learned that the most moving honkyoku is produced when you focus and develop the beauty of each phrase all on its own without a thought of the one to come next.  If the player is in a hurry to finish one phrase so he can go on to the next, the piece will sound dead and hurried. This type of focus required is the essence of meditation.

2) Your breath needs to be strong, steady, and long.  At the heart of meditation is controlling your breathing and being aware of each inward and outward breath.  And the same could be send for shakuhachi.  A strong shakuhachi player is very aware of how each breath can be best used. 

3) Learning shakuhachi is truly a daunting and challenging task.  Playing shakuhachi for the past 4+ years and trying to master it has really taught me about discipline and staying power - kind of like meditating.  If someone is searching for an instrument or practice that provides immediate returns he will find neither the shakuhachi or meditation satisfying.  Both are practices that require a serious longterm commitment, patience, and fortitude. 

Sorry if all of this was painfully obvious to this crowd.

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#24 2006-08-14 22:12:02

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Painfully obvious, but SO well put that all the pain was immediately salved...


                            smile


                            eB


   (it's impossible to hear that too much)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#25 2006-08-15 00:48:59

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

When I was in Japan, I wanted to find a Fuke priest to study with but non of the teachers I studied with could direct me to one. I was eventually overwhelmed with studying the different styles of music AND  shakuhachi making so I gave up looking.

Seth wrote:

2) Your breath needs to be strong, steady, and long.  At the heart of meditation is controlling your breathing and being aware of each inward and outward breath.  And the same could be send for shakuhachi.  A strong shakuhachi player is very aware of how each breath can be best used.

I have been a Yoga practitioner for over 20 years, this is my connection to shakuhachi and meditation. The three part yogic breath combined with my method of Sasa Buki does it for me. The breath has a natural crescendo and decrescendo. I just apply it to the long tone.  Once I started to understand Honkyoku, it was plain to see the connection between breath and music.  You can see it plainly written on the Dokyoku notation. There are breath marks written inbetween the phrases and some of them are pretty darn long so you know you need to inhale a lung full in order to make it through to the end. Many of the phrases also usually end with a decay similar to the decay of the breath. A coincidence? The use of breath is also reinforced with the Ma. That moment after an exhalation and before the inhalation is quite a special zone. I often find myself breathing along with a fine player.

Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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