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#76 2010-06-09 13:18:55

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

radi0gnome wrote:

Maybe it feels stuffy but sounds good?

Feels Stuffy, But Sounds Goooooooooooood!  The Yuu ABS Shakuhachi! Hmmmmm-mmmm Goooooooooooood!

Charles, I think you missed a great career in marketing and advertising.

Madmen are much the poorer for it.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#77 2010-06-09 13:32:33

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

Chris Moran wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

Maybe it feels stuffy but sounds good?

Feels Stuffy, But Sounds Goooooooooooood!  The Yuu ABS Shakuhachi! Hmmmmm-mmmm Goooooooooooood!

Charles, I think you missed a great career in marketing and advertising.

Madmen are much the poorer for it.

I've been thinking about it, it's pretty profound. If you were after only the sound you wanted and didn't care about what it feels like to play it, you might as well just put on a recording and forget about learning to play.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#78 2010-06-09 18:28:07

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

radi0gnome wrote:

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

Jon Kypros wrote:

In any case a copy of a historical masterpiece 1.8 would be far better than a Yuu or cast bore from a traditional standpoint. I find cast bores by Monty and Neptune great for playing music outside of tradition but lack the characteristics for certain traditional techniques.

I think Monty and the Yuu both were based on bore profiles of bamboo instruments.

I thought I remember reading from someone who dissected a Yuu that the curve in the bore is created from two straight-line holes. If that's not true, and the bore is actually cast from the original instrument, I guess they didn't cast it from the same instrument that they cast the outside from because the hole is off center at the bottom.

What John Neptune explained to me is that they (he and Monty) used a special computer probe to exactly model the bore of a real instrument, and used the measurements for the mandrel. Of course the mandrel has to be straight and have no negative curvature, so that it can be removed after the inside has set. Any flare after the choke point has to be hand done.

Obviously this is why the Yuu has the bottom hole offset. Somebody liked the curved bamboo as a model, but you can't curve the bore...

Toby

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#79 2010-06-09 18:35:12

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

Jon Kypros wrote:

Toby wrote:

I heard that in the Edo, holes weren't placed so that they would produce a certain note, but rather for aesthetic reasons, centered between the nodes.

Wouldn't life be simple if it were just a matter of sitting on a mountaintop and blowing for ourselves...I have some Philippine ifugao nose flutes with three holes placed within easy reach of three fingers, and damn notes and suchlike...

I wonder if anyone back then ever put two flutes side by side or copied the hole locations from one flute to a blank. Funny that aesthetics rather than sound seemed to be the rule.

radi0gnome wrote:

Jon Kypros wrote:

Nezasaha komi buki, muraiki and stuff that isn't suited to a narrow bore. It feels stuffy~

Chikuzen does pretty good with muraiki on a Yuu: http://www.shakuhachiyuu.com/MP3s/Micha … mprove.mp3

Maybe it feels stuffy but sounds good?

To me it does feel stuffy just like some flutes feel airy. You can adjust and adapt but then you will have a specialized embouchure for narrow bores. Some flutes feel neither airy or stuffy with a nice "middle ground" feel and tone. I've observed a balance inbetween narrow and wide which is actually interesting and very pleasant to play. However, flutes that fall between this "middle ground" and one of the extremes tend to be lacking in my own personal opinion.

Yes, but....occasionally one runs across an exception. I have a very old 1.8 I found in an antique store in Nagasaki some years ago. Made by somebody named "Chikudo"--no one knows him. This flute has an extremely large bore, and by all rights it should be very airy, and yet somehow it manages to focus all the energy perfectly. Plays all the way up to the top of the dai-kan easily too, which is unusual for a large bore. Of course it feels somewhat different than a smaller bore, but it is a wonderful instrument that is my main 1.8.

Likewise, I think the stuffiness of the Yuu has more to do with the bore profile than with the bore width overall.

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2010-06-09 18:37:37)

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#80 2010-06-10 01:42:02

Derek Van Choice
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From: Lake San Marcos, CA
Registered: 2005-10-21
Posts: 99
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Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

Toby wrote:

... Obviously this is why the Yuu has the bottom hole offset. Somebody liked the curved bamboo as a model, but you can't curve the bore...

Toby

Interesting.  A number of years ago, I had a 1.8 brass mandrel machined by a Swiss company; it was done on a screw machine, the only method possible to create a one-piece at that length/width, due to its slow rotational speed yet extreme accuracy.  The mandrel was based mostly on the shaku8 taper (http://www.shaku8.com/makeshaku8/data/18.html).  After making a fiberglass mold of the brass plug, I pulled several parts from it using different urethanes and silicones, at varying shore hardnesses.  Ultimately, I found a nicely stiff yet subtly pliable mixture that allowed the final mandrel to maintain its shape and rigidity, yet adapt to fairly radical curvatures at the bell.

Since there is still a fairly decent amount of fine-tuning work to be done after casting, including subsequent layers of lacquer, any slight numerical changes that occur with the hint of compression due to the curve are negligible, and always overcome manually.  My separation point in the mandrel is exactly at the choke point.  The procedure is a little tricky, but it all comes out quite easily.

Ironically, the vast majority of my shakuhachi still have the more traditional hand made bores, but I did dig out a mandrel a couple of weeks ago to cast a standard-sized base bore in a large, 40mm OD diameter culm with a healthy upturned root.  Heavy flute!  It worked well and it is maturing into a very nice instrument, though with a LOT more post-work than I remember on my last cast, to correct a weak go no hi.  Ugh... that one can be a bear!  I often hear flash echoes of the pirate on the Simpsons... "Arrrrr.... I don't know what I be doin'".

Last edited by Derek Van Choice (2010-06-10 01:52:19)

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#81 2010-06-10 01:43:29

Administration
Administrator
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 20

Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

Chris Moran wrote:

Heya, Brian: I think we're firmly off The Great Bamboo Outrage of 2010 C.E. as of mid-page 3 and into a new topic on shakuhachi design which is getting interesting (so far).

Could we get it split off when you have the time?

We do not have a split function. One of the ways forum members can help the Administration is to start their own new topics when they have something new to say.

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#82 2010-06-10 04:18:12

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

Derek Van Choice wrote:

Toby wrote:

... Obviously this is why the Yuu has the bottom hole offset. Somebody liked the curved bamboo as a model, but you can't curve the bore...

Toby

Interesting.  A number of years ago, I had a 1.8 brass mandrel machined by a Swiss company; it was done on a screw machine, the only method possible to create a one-piece at that length/width, due to its slow rotational speed yet extreme accuracy.  The mandrel was based mostly on the shaku8 taper (http://www.shaku8.com/makeshaku8/data/18.html).  After making a fiberglass mold of the brass plug, I pulled several parts from it using different urethanes and silicones, at varying shore hardnesses.  Ultimately, I found a nicely stiff yet subtly pliable mixture that allowed the final mandrel to maintain its shape and rigidity, yet adapt to fairly radical curvatures at the bell.

Since there is still a fairly decent amount of fine-tuning work to be done after casting, including subsequent layers of lacquer, any slight numerical changes that occur with the hint of compression due to the curve are negligible, and always overcome manually.  My separation point in the mandrel is exactly at the choke point.  The procedure is a little tricky, but it all comes out quite easily.

Ironically, the vast majority of my shakuhachi still have the more traditional hand made bores, but I did dig out a mandrel a couple of weeks ago to cast a standard-sized base bore in a large, 40mm OD diameter culm with a healthy upturned root.  Heavy flute!  It worked well and it is maturing into a very nice instrument, though with a LOT more post-work than I remember on my last cast, to correct a weak go no hi.  Ugh... that one can be a bear!  I often hear flash echoes of the pirate on the Simpsons... "Arrrrr.... I don't know what I be doin'".

Very nice idea!  One of the sensei at Meijiro took an old ski pole and wrapped it with an emery sanding belt. Turns out to be just about the right width and taper for a 1.8--just stick it down and grind away till it is at the right depth and you have an excellent starting point for a good bore.  But of course it is rigid. So I took a ski pole, cut it up into 2 cm lengths, and puttied in nuts that screw into the threaded end of my garibo. Work really great even for somewhat curved bores, and they maintain a circular cross-section and constant taper that is difficult to achieve with a normal garibo.

Last edited by Toby (2010-06-10 04:23:25)

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#83 2010-06-10 11:40:01

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Best sounding bamboo? If Humans can be cloned why not shakuhachi? Etc.

Glad to see you working on something Derek.  Remember, I get dibs on your next creation -)


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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