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#1 2010-07-21 15:10:33

So tsu me
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 5

"Professional" Names

I've been trying out playing shakuhachi the past few weeks and started looking at teachers.

I was curious about the Japanese names given to many of them. I can't discern if Japanese are given these are if it's just for foreigners.

Why are these given? Is this only for foreigners?

If an individual declined the naming, would it be an insult to the giver?

Thanks!


Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

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#2 2010-07-21 22:45:10

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Hello So Tsu Me,
In traditional shakuhachi schools, generally when becoming a "master" (Shihan) one is given a "chikumei" (bamboo name) by the person awarding the Shihan - generally the head of the school. This is not unique to shakuhachi but common to many traditional Japanese arts. As not all Shihan will teach, one could also call it an "artist's name". (You don't have to be professional to receive it).

Although this is traditional and usual, not all schools use this system. Chikushinkai for example (the school until recently headed by the late Yokoyama Katsuya) generally does not give names, although for example in my own case Yokoyama-sensei gave me the name "Senryu", since as a professional shakuhachi maker a name is particularly important.

Names generally use one syllable from the teacher's name, and then often a syllable from the student's original given name, or perhaps another syllable. Araki Kodo II for example was the head of Kinko-ryu and gave his students the syllable "do" meaning "child" (pronounced with a long "o" which I can never find on my keyboard"). The top student who will later head the school will often be given the full name, in this case "Kodo", hence Araki Kodo III, IV and V. The name "Araki" in this case is the same as III was one of the sons of II, and so on. Kodo the first was not from the same family, and so there was no "Araki Kodo I". (Kodo I was Toyoda Kodo.)

And so you have the "do" syllable being passed on to students of several generations of Kinko-ryu players, such as Miura Kindo, Notomi Judo and so on. Incidentally Jin Nyodo's "do" was originally this "do", his name having been given by Miura Kindo. However later Jin changed his name (changed the kanji but kept the pronunciation, as is possible in Japanese). I am not sure why, but I wonder if it might have been to distance himself from Kinko-ryu as there were many more senior players around him from Kinko-ryu and he was establishing his own school.

There are also other instances of people choosing their own names though I don't know how common or accepted this is, and whether is still goes on now. I have heard of instances even in the Edo period of people choosing their own names, though again even then I think it was common to receive ones name from ones teacher.

As for refusing a name? I would personally guess that that would be very rude.
One difficulty can arise if one receives 2 names. It is very rare that someone will study with more than one teacher to the level worthy of a shihan/name, but it does happen occasionally. In this case the second teacher and or student may decide to give no shihan and no name, since one has already been given. This would be out of politeness and respect to the first teacher, and could also be because becoming a Shihan of a second school could necessitate actually leaving the first school (permanently) or even being expelled. On the other hand there may be occasions where the teachers of both schools agree with each other and give permission, or, the teacher of the first school may have passed away already. In fact in Japanese culture, the latter case may be the easiest circumstance in which to start learning from a second teacher, and I can think of several instances of this.

For those with 2 names, they may be known by both names as a kind of double-barreled name, or they may use the respective names on separate occasions.

There may also be occasions when a name is awarded other than from completing the standard course of study, and there may be occasions when a level lower than that of Shihan is accompanied by a name given. If so perhaps others will tell us more.

Lastly, I was wondering why you might be asking about declining a name, and I thought perhaps you were worried about having to change your name permanently? Don't worry it's not some kind of cult  wink Names are traditionally awarded after years of hard work, and are used as a "stage name". This is a great honor. So within the shakuhachi world one is known by that name. For example I had a friend who was qualified in several arts - among Nagauta people he was known by one name, Shigin people another name, and so on. For business and all other things one generally continues using ones usual name.

Last edited by Justin (2010-07-21 22:58:51)

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#3 2010-07-21 23:51:19

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: "Professional" Names

Good reply Justin, In our (American) branch of Jin Nyodo, we get names when receiving Jun Shihan, we don't have to wait for Shihan. But I think Jun Shihan takes us as long or longer to study for than Shihan in some other schools. So there's some variability depending upon those factors.

Another thing worth noting is that there are some equally qualified players and teachers who don't have names because they have not paid for them. In some schools you can have a Shihan but still need to pay for the name, and some people would rather spend that money on a flute or maybe a diving trip. In our line we don't pay for the names, we get them after a certain course of study.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#4 2010-07-21 23:51:27

Danny
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2010-05-26
Posts: 32
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

In Zen practice (at least in the lineage I practice under), students are given a Dharma name when they undergo the Jukai ceremony, which is a formal initiation and commitment to living by the precepts and bodhisattva vows. The Dharma name is usually chosen by the teacher and the student together, both to reflect the student's disposition and also as a kind of challenge to live up to or grow in to. I suppose if one already has a Dharma name they can still acquire a shakuhachi name? Does the shakuhachi name have any significance to the player's style?


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#5 2010-07-22 00:16:34

So tsu me
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 5

Re: "Professional" Names

Justin,
Thank you for graciously taking the time for such a detailed answer. So! This is an established practice and not just to make the "gaijin" more acceptable to the Japanese.

Justin wrote:

Lastly, I was wondering why you might be asking about declining a name,...

Just a "What if...?" I can surely imagine some who would just as well be known by their own name and may not care for such a tradition. To some, honors and accolades are unimportant. Perhaps, in some cultures, being asked to TAKE a foreign name would be an insult, just as you "would personally guess that that would be very rude" in NOT taking it. wink


Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

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#6 2010-07-22 05:29:37

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Danny wrote:

Does the shakuhachi name have any significance to the player's style?

Hi Danny,
As I said above one syllable of the name is commonly from the teacher. This in itself indicates that you belong to his school, and so is naturally an indication of style. Hence meeting someone with a "do" name (with the kanji meaning "child") one would automatically assume them to be Kinko-ryu. As for the other syllable perhaps different schools/teachers have a way of picking them. In my case with Yokoyama-sensei since he had no tradition of giving names and so no kanji representative of his school, he was able to choose a name freely, and said that he chose it according to what he felt I was.



So tsu me wrote:

Justin,
Thank you for graciously taking the time for such a detailed answer.

You're welcome.

So tsu me wrote:

Justin wrote:

Lastly, I was wondering why you might be asking about declining a name,...

Just a "What if...?" I can surely imagine some who would just as well be known by their own name and may not care for such a tradition.

In Japan there is great respect for teachers. I am not sure of the relation between music teachers and students in the West, but if I could take the example of a student and a school teacher in the West, and the example of a Guru and disciple in the East, the relation of a shakuhachi teacher and student is closer to that of Guru and disciple. Receiving a name from the master then, is generally regarded as a great honor. This also acts as a kind of authentication of the transmission from master to student.

There may be those who don't care about such tradition but more often that not these people would probably not get very far in their studies, since learning a repertoire properly requires a great deal of effort and a good level of understanding and commitment from both teacher and student. So there is already an element of "devotion" there. Having a humble and devoted attitude makes for much faster and better learning, overcoming ones pride and mistakes and better enabling the teacher to guide you to the best of his ability.

So tsu me wrote:

To some, honors and accolades are unimportant. Perhaps, in some cultures, being asked to TAKE a foreign name would be an insult, just as you "would personally guess that that would be very rude" in NOT taking it. wink

Remember, this is Japanese culture. And the name is only within the context of this Japanese art. So in the cases where (if) someone did find it insulting, they had better either follow the tradition anyway and keep their opinion to themselves (out of respect), or if it were really a problem then I'm sure if they explained it to their teacher, and how important it was, the teacher would be fine with giving no name.

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#7 2010-07-22 16:04:35

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

Another thing worth noting is that there are some equally qualified players and teachers who don't have names because they have not paid for them.

So, ahhhh ... what's a name going for these days? Yen or dollars, it doesn't matter.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#8 2010-07-22 22:08:59

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Chris Moran wrote:

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

Another thing worth noting is that there are some equally qualified players and teachers who don't have names because they have not paid for them.

So, ahhhh ... what's a name going for these days? Yen or dollars, it doesn't matter.

Yokoyama Katsuya certainly did not charge me for my name. I don't think that Araki Kodo charges for names either. I never asked about this in Seien-ryu but when Iwata Seien sensei explained to me the system of ranks and prices he never mentioned any separate fee for a name, so I assumed there was no separate fee. I'll try to check next time I see him. Brian which schools do you know that charge for names separately and would issue shihan without a name?

There is another thread about shihan by the way, if you do a search you'll find that. That has more info of the shihan system.

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#9 2010-07-22 23:23:16

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Justin wrote:

...  never mentioned any separate fee for a name

I once asked Masa for a bamboo name, but he said he couldn't find the right kanji for "Bleeding Ears".


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#10 2010-07-22 23:26:49

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Justin wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

Another thing worth noting is that there are some equally qualified players and teachers who don't have names because they have not paid for them.

So, ahhhh ... what's a name going for these days? Yen or dollars, it doesn't matter.

Yokoyama Katsuya certainly did not charge me for my name. I don't think that Araki Kodo charges for names either. I never asked about this in Seien-ryu but when Iwata Seien sensei explained to me the system of ranks and prices he never mentioned any separate fee for a name, so I assumed there was no separate fee. I'll try to check next time I see him. Brian which schools do you know that charge for names separately and would issue shihan without a name?

There is another thread about shihan by the way, if you do a search you'll find that. That has more info of the shihan system.

I will send you a private email about that, because I don't know whether naming names and ryu is appropriate on a forum. I am not implying that you or anyone else paid for their names but I do know of some instances. Also (Chris) there may be examples of people paying for names who have not studied properly or who can't play well, but that's not what I'm talking about. I mean people who are qualified and then also pay for the names. I don't think it really matters whether some teachers charge for a license and/or name and some don't, that's their business.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2010-07-23 06:34:28

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: "Professional" Names

With the particular branch of Kinko that I'm in, named Chikudosha (which broke away from Notomi Judo's group after both Notomi and his son Haruhiko passed away - another long story which has been told elsewhere) we receive different names when we acquire the junshihan and the shihan licenses.  The licenses are paid for, yes, after one completes a certain repertoire of pieces to the shihan's satisfaction.  In my particular case it was about six years of playing before my sensei felt I was eligible for the junshihan.  Several other people in our group here in have 'completed' enough pieces in the repertoire to where they are eligible for the licenses but they haven't been interested in paying the license fees while several others have done so.  For junshihan we are given the first syllable of the name of the second highest ranked teacher in our ryuha, and then for shihan the last syllable of the iemoto's name, so I had the name Hotei (from sensei Teido Suzuki) for about eight years before acquiring the name Ryudo, from the iemoto Fuji Jido...

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#12 2010-07-23 09:42:14

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: "Professional" Names

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Chikudosha (which broke away from Notomi Judo's group after both Notomi and his son Haruhiko passed away - another long story which has been told elsewhere)

Hi Daniel,
           I haven't heard the story and would love to. Any suggestions where I might access it?
             Thanks
                  Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#13 2010-07-23 21:18:15

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

The branch of Kinko ryu that I belong to (Chikuyusha - Kawase) and more properly the local guild that I belong to (Wakanakai - Torii Kyomudo) follow the exact same manner as Dan's which I suspect is most common in the larger Kinko guilds.  Since charging money for things like dues, licenses and lessons is the main way that the head of the guild makes a living if that is their full-time occupation, then it all makes sense and fits well into Japanese culture as this system is used in many other traditional art forms.  I know of nobody who bought a name though and further I can't imagine a Japanese person even considering this.  It would be seen as highly arrogant.  I have told this story before, but around 12 years after I had been awarded my junshihan from my sensei, I asked him when he thought I might be eligible for a shihan license.  He answered rather glibly that I could have had it years before, but he thought that I didn't care.  I paid the small fee and got the license.  I guess I did care.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#14 2010-07-23 22:10:14

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Hi Jeff
Just to clarify, are you saying that a name is given with Junshihan and then another name with Shihan, neither of which have any separate fee from the license? So far from what everyone says that seems normal. Anyone from Chikumeisha have info if it's the same there?

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#15 2010-07-24 00:48:54

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Jeff Cairns wrote:

I have told this story before, but around 12 years after I had been awarded my junshihan from my sensei, I asked him when he thought I might be eligible for a shihan license.  He answered rather glibly that I could have had it years before, but he thought that I didn't care.  I paid the small fee and got the license.  I guess I did care.

Hahahahahaha that's exactly what happened with me. People were asking why I didn't have a Shihan, and I didn't care, but eventually asked my teacher. He said, "You never asked for one." Ha.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2010-07-24 09:22:12

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Justin wrote:

Hi Jeff
Just to clarify, are you saying that a name is given with Junshihan and then another name with Shihan, neither of which have any separate fee from the license? So far from what everyone says that seems normal. Anyone from Chikumeisha have info if it's the same there?

Yes, that's exactly the case in my guild's methods.  Our naming process loosely follows the method you laid out.  My junshihan name was Hoshou.  It had nothing to do with my teacher's name, however my shihan name is Shoudo.  The first character comes from my junshihan name and the second character comes from by teachers name which is Kodo (his father's name is Kyomudo and that is the name that is inherited from iemoto to iemoto of the guild).  I have one student who has achieved a junshihan and his name is iishou.  The last part of his name comes from my name.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#17 2010-07-24 10:13:36

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Hi Jeff,
Are you sure your school is part of Chikuyusha?

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#18 2010-07-24 21:46:37

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Well Justin, it's a bit of a tangled affair.  The head of Wakanakai is Tsurugi Kyomudo who will be succeeded by his son Tsurugi Kodo.  Tsurugi Kyomudo's teacher was Torii Kyomudo who was the originator of Wakanakai.  His teachers were Uehara Kyodo who was in turn the student of Araki Kodo II.  He was also taught by Kawase Junsuke I, another student of Araki Kodo II.  That puts the Wakanakai in the Kawase lineage.  Tsurugi Kodo (who you met) originally started his shakuhachi studies with his father, Tsurugi Kyomudo, but later moved to Kawase Junsuke III for study re-establishing the connection.  Do you have different information?


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#19 2010-07-24 22:07:54

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Chris Moran, could you please elucidate the naming practices and lineage chart for Knob-U-ryu™? cool


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2010-07-24 22:17:31

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

First, it depends on how many pimples you have.

Secondly, where.

Only sacred masters know.

Shakuhachi playing is tertiary to these criteria.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#21 2010-07-24 22:19:44

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Lineage chart:

Similar to an East Kentucky family tree.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#22 2010-07-24 22:32:52

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Jeff Cairns wrote:

Well Justin, it's a bit of a tangled affair.  The head of Wakanakai is Tsurugi Kyomudo who will be succeeded by his son Tsurugi Kodo.  Tsurugi Kyomudo's teacher was Torii Kyomudo who was the originator of Wakanakai.  His teachers were Uehara Kyodo who was in turn the student of Araki Kodo II.  He was also taught by Kawase Junsuke I, another student of Araki Kodo II.  That puts the Wakanakai in the Kawase lineage.  Tsurugi Kodo (who you met) originally started his shakuhachi studies with his father, Tsurugi Kyomudo, but later moved to Kawase Junsuke III for study re-establishing the connection.  Do you have different information?

Hi Jeff
I just assumed that if your school was Chikuyusha then the Shihan licenses would be issued by the head of the school, i.e. Kawase Junsuke. Since you were refering to your teacher as the iemoto, and his teacher/father before that, I wondered if maybe the school was not actually a part of Chikuyusha but a separate school.

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#23 2010-07-24 22:39:33

So tsu me
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 5

Re: "Professional" Names

Well!!

My head's about to explode.

P.S.: I'm a proud descendant of East Kaintuckians. big_smile


Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

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#24 2010-07-24 23:08:39

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

So tsu me wrote:

I'm a proud descendant of East Kaintuckians. big_smile

I think we all are.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#25 2010-07-24 23:18:44

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

So tsu me wrote:

My head's about to explode.

Sorry of the conversation is boring you! I find the details of how schools work quite interesting. It's the social, financial and political side of this aspect of the culture. It also of course shapes the music, defines styles and so on.

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