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#26 2010-07-25 09:40:52

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Justin, as I said, it's a bit of a tangled affair.  There are protocols and rules, and then there are exceptions. 
Regarding the...ah... humour above,  I think that some are saying  our conversation is too culturally specific and keeps them out of the loop which may make them uncomfortable. Sorry friends.  No harm intended.   But please understand that not everybody on this forum lives outside of Japan and some do have very specific cultural experiences with the shakuhachi that may seem otherwise dreary, dry and unnecessary, but have meaning in context and that is where this thread has gone. 
Justin, I don't think the above comments arose out of boredom. Intelligence would dictate that if bored they point their mouse to 'index' and hunt for something more interesting, or better yet, contribute  elsewhere.
When the BBQ returned after its short hiatus, our administrators asked the moderators to please contribute with meaningful information that might forward the understanding of the instrument in its myriad of faces.  I think we are doing just that.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#27 2010-07-25 12:01:49

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: "Professional" Names

I find the thread very interesting. In a sort of related question, can anybody steer me to a history of  Notomi Judo and some of the stories relating to his times,  geographical area and lineage?

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2010-07-25 12:04:23)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#28 2010-07-25 14:36:48

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Jeff Cairns wrote:

Justin, I don't think the above comments arose out of boredom. Intelligence would dictate that if bored they point their mouse to 'index' and hunt for something more interesting, or better yet, contribute  elsewhere.

Someone jokingly posted something about his head being about to explode. I can relate, this is an awful lot of information about a complex system that's been set up. I'm finding the conversation interesting and educational, and there are probably many others like me. I've always wondered about those names but was afraid to ask.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2010-07-25 16:33:29)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#29 2010-07-25 16:59:19

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Jeff Cairns wrote:

Justin, as I said, it's a bit of a tangled affair.  There are protocols and rules, and then there are exceptions. 
Regarding the...ah... humour above,  I think that some are saying  our conversation is too culturally specific and keeps them out of the loop which may make them uncomfortable. Sorry friends.  No harm intended.   But please understand that not everybody on this forum lives outside of Japan and some do have very specific cultural experiences with the shakuhachi that may seem otherwise dreary, dry and unnecessary, but have meaning in context and that is where this thread has gone. 
Justin, I don't think the above comments arose out of boredom. Intelligence would dictate that if bored they point their mouse to 'index' and hunt for something more interesting, or better yet, contribute  elsewhere.
When the BBQ returned after its short hiatus, our administrators asked the moderators to please contribute with meaningful information that might forward the understanding of the instrument in its myriad of faces.  I think we are doing just that.

No need to get defensive Jeff, this is a good topic. Although I wish we had a "split" function so we could split it off when it went from professional names to lineage. Both parts of this topic are good. The humor is just humor, not sarcasm..........anyway the humor from me is. smile

You and Justin should just keep gnawing on this until you get to the bottom of it. It's valuable and certainly more "on topic" than most stuff around here.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#30 2010-07-25 18:22:48

janemukei
Member
From: New York
Registered: 2006-06-08
Posts: 23

Re: "Professional" Names

Hi Jeff and Justin, I for one have enjoyed your conversation and learned from it - about names and lineages. As to Danny's comment about dharma names...my teacher, the late John Daido Loori, Abbot of Zen Mountain Monastery,Soto tradition, did not consult the student before choosing a dharma name.Presumably he knew us each well enough to select a name that presented us with a challenge or concept to attain.   Jane

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#31 2010-07-25 18:27:09

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

Jeff Cairns wrote:

Justin, as I said, it's a bit of a tangled affair.  There are protocols and rules, and then there are exceptions. 
Regarding the...ah... humour above,  I think that some are saying  our conversation is too culturally specific and keeps them out of the loop which may make them uncomfortable. Sorry friends.  No harm intended.   But please understand that not everybody on this forum lives outside of Japan and some do have very specific cultural experiences with the shakuhachi that may seem otherwise dreary, dry and unnecessary, but have meaning in context and that is where this thread has gone. 
Justin, I don't think the above comments arose out of boredom. Intelligence would dictate that if bored they point their mouse to 'index' and hunt for something more interesting, or better yet, contribute  elsewhere.
When the BBQ returned after its short hiatus, our administrators asked the moderators to please contribute with meaningful information that might forward the understanding of the instrument in its myriad of faces.  I think we are doing just that.

No need to get defensive Jeff, this is a good topic. Although I wish we had a "split" function so we could split it off when it went from professional names to lineage. Both parts of this topic are good. The humor is just humor, not sarcasm..........anyway the humor from me is. smile

You and Justin should just keep gnawing on this until you get to the bottom of it. It's valuable and certainly more "on topic" than most stuff around here.

I totally go along the sames lines as Tairaku here.

Now if I had more energy to spend I would write the whole thing about what I know of Japanese history and name giving. What I see here is that what will mislead the general public into a clusterfuck is that we will focus on the world of Shakuhachi/Music . This is indeed the whole subject and what we are trying to define to see what is truly traditional how it changed and the multiple variations depending on individual teachers/organizations.

To truly get to the bottom of this the culture as a whole when it comes to name giving has to be looked into and this will bring real clarification that we are dealing with in terms of Shakuhachi.

Name giving is a common thing among traditional craftsman like sword makers, Samurais Nowadays/practitioners of Koryu, Confucian or Shinto scholars/priests, Buddhist monks, Kabuki and Noh actors and Tattoo artists I am sure I am forgetting many this is just so that we can see an example of what groups get into that stuff

So outside of Shakuhachi this thing follows a convention you all need to look into that and I feel most of the questions/precisions about the music world will be answered.

Each groups has its reasons for how,when and for what reasons (What do you gain from it and what does the name say to the general public).

As for myself I can speak clearly for the Buddhist thing and the Shinto/Koryu thing since I was given a name in this world as well. Both of them mean something different as to why they are used where I come from and why was it given to me.

Ok now back to my meds and my cave


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#32 2010-07-25 20:33:21

So tsu me
Member
Registered: 2010-07-15
Posts: 5

Re: "Professional" Names

I've been away all day and just wanted to let you know that my head's actually OK!

Being unfamiliar with Japanese proper names, school names, sect names, etc., encountering so much at a time might get a bit confusing. But it was a joke as most realize, I'm not bored or uncomfortable, and found the information interesting for the most part. Feel free to continue!


Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

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#33 2010-07-25 22:37:08

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Brian, I wasn't being defensive. I didn't  feel that what we were discussing needed defense.  I was trying to sort out the need for humor in the midst of what Justin and I were talking about. Admittedly, the 'just humor' left me wondering.  It tends to stop the flow of what was otherwise going on and I guessed that was the purpose. If we were all sitting around a kitchen table somewhere having the same discussion, it would be different, but we weren't.  I agree with you though Brian that the elegant ability  to move things into a new thread might promote better discussion capabilities. It's too bad that we spend so much time trying to work our lives around demanding limitations of software and not have software ply to our needs.
Sebastien - thanks for shedding some light on the issue and suggesting a course to further our understanding of name granting in Japanese culture.
So tsu me, I'm glad your head is okay wink .

Last edited by Jeff Cairns (2010-07-25 22:46:54)


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#34 2010-07-26 04:37:50

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: "Professional" Names

In reply to your question, Jim,  concerning Notomi Judo, and his lineage, I've told the story somewhere on the forum but don't mind repeating it...  I was told that the iemoto of my branch of Kinko, whose name is Fuji Jido, was initially  a student of Notomi Judo's son Haruhiko, and when Haruhiko died, Fuji then became one of the top students of Notomi Judo.  I think Fuji may have originally been from Kyushu and moved up to Tokyo when he was in his teens; his brother is a shakuhachi player somewhere near Fukuoka: I believe Justin has met him and perhaps could give us some information on Fuji's brother.  Notomi Judo was the first shakuhachi player who was given the title ningen kokuho ("National Living Treasure") and you can find his name in the lineage chart on the International Shakuhachi Society website; after he died I think the title of 'ningen kokuho' went to Yamaguchi Goro, who headed a different branch of Kinko, called Chikumeisha (and perhaps there was a Tozan player as well).  Now I guess you know that the two ningen kokuho are Aoki Reibo and Yamamoto Hozan.   

Back to the story, after Notomi died, Fuji had some kind of falling out with the remaining son, a shakuhachi player who made a living as a dentist, and who took the name Notomi II.  Before Fuji decided to break with Notomi II, another player named Suzuki Shodo had already taken a small group of players, called Shodo-kai, out of Notomi II's guild (which was called Domon Kai).  Soon afterwards Fuji left the guild with about half of the players (at least a hundred people, maybe more...I'm not really sure of the numbers).  He was joined by Shodo's group, and Shodo's son Teido became an uchideshi (apprentice) of Fuji's.  Fuji ended up rewriting the Notomi line's honkyoku along with Araki Kodo V and then officially became a new iemoto with his own group, called Chikudosha; I believe the group was recognized as a new branch of Kinko byl shakuhachi related groups (Sankyoku Kyokai, Kinko Kenkyu Kai...) sometime in the 1980s.  Fuji and Teido are the only two professional shakuhachi players in the group, which has several hundred members, mostly up in the Tokyo area.  We use the same gaikyoku music notation as Domon-kai, the shiro-fu (music notation with a white cover, a bit different from the aofu-fu, the pieces with the green cover that you can buy in Mejiro).  I'm assuming there may still be some bad blood between Chikudosha and Domon-kai, but I've never actually met any players from Domon-kai.  Our branch here in Kochi is the only group of Chikudosha players in Shikoku and it's headed by a proficient amateur player of shakuhachi named Ikezoe Kyodo, who is my teacher.  My teacher spent some years up in the Tokyo area learning from Shodo sensei, a semi-pro player who also made my sensei's flutes, so my sensei has never actually learned any pieces from our iemoto but only from Shodo (who is getting up in years now) and his son Teido, who is next in line after Fuji.  There are several groups within Chikudosha, and we're in one called Toujukai. I've been meaning to get the exact details from one of the teachers up in the Kanto area in person as I've just heard this secondhand, from my sensei here in Kochi.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2010-07-26 04:45:44)

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#35 2010-07-26 05:00:07

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: "Professional" Names

Jim, further on the lineage thing, I just noticed that Justin has quite a nice Kinko lineage chart on his website.  I was told by my teacher over the weekend that our honkyoku notation was originally written by Kimura Shido (Yusai), whose name also appears on that chart, before it was modified by Fuji Jido.

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#36 2010-07-26 16:29:02

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: "Professional" Names

Daniel,
    Thanks for taking time. It sounds to me like the styles of your school and what I studied with Yamato Shudo are similar. We studied from the white book which I understood to be Notomi's work.
    Do you know how Yamato Shudo fits into this story?  He considers Notomi his teacher. I can't help but wonder how he chose to navigate all that splitting after Notomi died. It sure was great studying with somebody who is a direct and important part of the lineage. It gave me an increased respect for you guys that are over there with your faces right in it. Sweet!
      Thanks again for filling me in.
             Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#37 2010-07-26 21:04:06

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

As Decapitated Member of Knob-U-Ryu™ I will say my head, bumping above green forests abound, about to explode like red-knife popped corn, too, except I no longer have one.

Hello pine bird, foment taxi.


— translated by GoogleFish™ Translator


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#38 2010-07-26 23:15:45

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Since the topic is on notation now I made a new topic since it would otherwise be difficult to find in future searches stuck here in the miscellaneous section:

http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=4781

Daniel perhaps you'd like to copy and paste your story of gakufu to that topic?

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#39 2010-07-27 03:16:24

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Justin, since your question about Wakanakai being part the Chikuyusha, I also questioned it and went to the horse's mouth.  And low and behold, Wakanakai broke off from Chikuyusha with Torii Kyomudo.  It still considers itself part of Kawase-kei, but is not a formally recognized part.  And like other breakoffs like Reibo kai , it has developed its own idiosyncrasies.  Thus, the granting of my shihan from Wakanakai's iemoto, Tsurugi Kyomudo was not stepping out of traditional protocol.  Only my understanding was.  I stand corrected.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#40 2010-07-27 03:31:11

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Now we're getting somewhere.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#41 2010-07-27 05:24:34

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

Jeff Cairns wrote:

Justin, since your question about Wakanakai being part the Chikuyusha, I also questioned it and went to the horse's mouth.  And low and behold, Wakanakai broke off from Chikuyusha with Torii Kyomudo.  It still considers itself part of Kawase-kei, but is not a formally recognized part.  And like other breakoffs like Reibo kai , it has developed its own idiosyncrasies.  Thus, the granting of my shihan from Wakanakai's iemoto, Tsurugi Kyomudo was not stepping out of traditional protocol.  Only my understanding was.  I stand corrected.

Hi Jeff,
Yes that makes more sense.

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#42 2010-07-28 19:29:14

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: "Professional" Names

Hi Jim.  That's interesting that we've been studying from the same notatiion. I don't know Yamato Shudo, but noticed on the Net that he seems to have done a recording with Notomi II so I'm guessing that he stayed in the Domon kai.  I guess you could ask him the next time you get a chance to study with him.

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#43 2010-07-29 02:36:22

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: "Professional" Names

Daniel,
    I'm guessing the style I learned from Yamato Sensei isn't much different from the style you study. I wonder if the splits were more over personalities than disputes of musical style. I hope I get the chance to ask him. It would have to be interesting to get the  story of how all of that went down from someone who was part of it.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#44 2010-07-30 00:51:28

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

I know we all take this stuff very seriously but the thought occurred to me that motorcycle gangs do the same thing......i.e. have a leader, someone breaks off.......starting new ones, defections. It's interesting the urge to form gangs (or ryu) based around your interests. smile


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#45 2010-07-30 01:40:45

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: "Professional" Names

It begins here for me on this road. How the whole mess happened, I don't know. But I know it couldn't happen again in a million years. Maybe I could have stopped it early. But once the trouble was on its way, I was just goin' with it. Mostly, I remember the girl, I, I can't explain it - sad chick like that. But somethin' changed in me. She got to me. But that's later, anyway. This is where it begins for me right on this road.
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc257/breathin55/johnny.jpg

Last edited by Jeff Cairns (2010-07-30 02:09:32)


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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