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#1 2010-07-27 17:44:44

pueyrredon
Member
Registered: 2010-07-25
Posts: 9

koro-koro questions

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

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#2 2010-07-27 21:15:05

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: koro-koro questions

pueyrredon wrote:

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

Here's a bunch of useful info on KOROKORO:

From Tokuyama Takashi's Honkyoku Playing Guide:

コロコロ

KOROKORO—Start with covering holes #4 and #5 in KAZASHI (shaded) with the chin in a MERI position. Holes #1 and #2 alternate in opening and closing, but both holes should be closed for a brief instant. (You can also start with the opening of #2.)

When either hole #1 or #2 is open, the “HA” sound is heard. When both holes are closed, the “RO” sound is heard. The soft and quick change between these two sounds is called KOROKORO. The secret of the KOROKORO lies in the combination of a soft tone and the movement of alternating fingers. The fingers should not go too far off the hole.

==================

Don't know where I got this one:

The most important thing about KOROKORO is that it's actually three fingerings in a four note pattern.

1st note: Start with fingers 2,3,4 closed and 5(thumb) half open. Play it meri.

2nd note: Close hole 1. The pitch should go up. Make sure you hear it.

3rd note: Open hole 2. (1 is still closed.) The pitch goes down again. Adjust your meri (make it deeper) so that you get the same pitch as the first note.

Repeat 2nd note: Close hole 2. Again, don't rush. Make sure you hear it.

Start again at the 1st note by opening hole 1.

Practice this slowly and gradually speed up. Don't let yourself just swap fingers 1 & 2 -- they have to both be down long enough for their note to sound. When you're going fast enough you no longer have to adjust the meri on the 3rd note.


There's another version of this: Instead of 4 closed and 5 half open, you can just crack both 4 and 5 -- the rest is the same. The tone color is different and might be preferable sometimes, but I usually find it more difficult to play.

==================

From Kakizakai Kaoru's Shakuhachi Tips, translated and edited by Zachary Braverman (kotodama.net)

Here's a link to a sample of Katsuya Yokoyama playing the first part of Suzuru (a version of Tsuru no Sugomori). This segment contains many different variations of the technique.

http://www.kotodama.net/shakuhachi/suzuru.mp3

“Koro-koro” is a crucial technique among modern pieces as well as honkyoku (especially Tsuru no Sugomori). It is one of the most instinctive and important shakuhachi techniques there is, but it is also often performed poorly. At the Shakuhachi Kenshu-Kan, it is played by partially opening hole 5, meri-ing, and sequentially opening and closing holes 1 and 2. This technique gives strong intonation.

The crucial thing about koro-koro is pitch. The pitch of “koro-koro-koro…” is “Ri-ri-ri”. Without this correct pitch, the technique will never be complete. The pitch will tend to rise when hole 2 is open, so you must meri more deeply then. It is also helpful not to raise the second finger as high from the hole, which also helps hold down the pitch. This is especially crucial in during slow koro’s, such as at the beginning of Daha [or :43 on in the sound clip above].

Besides pitch, people also have the problem of muddy or indistinct transitions between the sounds. The various sound of the technique should be bright and clear. One reason for muddiness in some players is that there is no time when both holes 1 and 2 are closed. There must be a brief instant while you are opening 1 and closing 2 (or the reverse) where both holes are closed. This gives rise to the distinctive “popping” sound and helps make the different sounds stand out. Remember, the order is “Open 1 > Close 1 > Open 2 > Close 2 > Open 1”.

Be sure to practice at a speed where you can follow both of the above points (insuring a good pitch of Ri and a brief space where both holes are closed). The idea is to implant the proper motions in your muscle memory. Everybody tends to go at the technique full speed, but precision is more important than speed. Once you have precision down pat, speed will easily follow. Practicing along with a metronome isn’t a bad idea. Ten minutes of koro-koro a day and you can become a koro-koro master.


Don't know how it would be written in western notation, and it'd probably be too unwieldy to make sense. I would just bracket the notes in the line where it occurs and use 'korokoro' and/or コロコロ, keeping in mind that the pitch should be C on a 1.8 flute.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2010-07-27 21:44:59

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: koro-koro questions

Taizan Ha teaches a Horo-Horo which is like Koro-Koro except the #4 hole is completely closed and the thumbhole (#5) is completely open. Everything else is the same. The sound is more direct, less subtle, than Koro-Koro.

These figures are a real bear to learn on your own. Really good to have a master teacher show you on this from the beginning. Kakizakai Kaoru teaches it very well in person. But even armed with excellent instruction, there is no getting around spending a lot of time in the woodshed with these so you don't sound bush league.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#4 2010-07-27 21:52:49

pueyrredon
Member
Registered: 2010-07-25
Posts: 9

Re: koro-koro questions

Thanks for your answers, but I'm not a shakuhachi player. I'm just writing a piece for it. There should be a topic about this: "Composing for Shakuhachi"....
So if someone could answer this, I'll appreciate:

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

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#5 2010-07-27 23:39:09

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: koro-koro questions

pueyrredon wrote:

Thanks for your answers, but I'm not a shakuhachi player. I'm just writing a piece for it. There should be a topic about this: "Composing for Shakuhachi"....
So if someone could answer this, I'll appreciate:

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

http://www.shakuhachichambermusic.com/p … urces.html
http://www.shakuhachichambermusic.com/pages/tuning.html
http://www.shakuhachichambermusic.com/p … ingwm.html

Last edited by edosan (2010-07-27 23:47:24)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2010-07-27 23:53:45

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: koro-koro questions

Marty Regan has also written a paper on various techniques for shakuhachi, and koto.

pueyrredon, check your email. I sent you a bunch of ideas a few days ago.

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#7 2010-07-28 00:09:44

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: koro-koro questions

pueyrredon wrote:

Thanks for your answers, but I'm not a shakuhachi player. I'm just writing a piece for it. There should be a topic about this: "Composing for Shakuhachi"....
So if someone could answer this, I'll appreciate:

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

Korokoro can be played in different ways as others have already explained. The idea of it is that it is a special trill with enharmonic notes or almost enharmonic notes - but that can vary from player to player and with the technique used. So it is not particularly a trill between c and d or d and c#. The note korokoro is focused around depends on the fingering and the angle of the head. That means you can in fact gliss while doing korokoro.

Regarding notation, I would recommend you make a note or notes around c or d that indicates the duration and then write korokoro above. The korokoro technique does  not give exact pitches in terms of the Western system and I would therefore not recommend you to write it out exactly.
Then you can explain the korokoro technique in the introduction in case players of other instruments would want to play your piece. Shakuhachi players would know what to do when they see korokoro and the duration.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#8 2010-07-28 08:28:58

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: koro-koro questions

pueyrredon wrote:

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

I don't know enough about koro-koro to add much, you're getting information from some of the most knowledgeable players here already. However, I think there's a basic misunderstanding you have with the notes. On a 1.8 the notes have D as the center note, not C... I think, I've never been taught the technique in fine detail, so I could be wrong.

Here's a beautiful rendition of a piece that is known for the technique, he starts using it at about 1:10 minutes in. You can see when he flutters the fingers of his bottom hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRx-B8mb … LLku11KUMw

Last edited by radi0gnome (2010-07-28 08:50:36)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#9 2010-07-28 09:08:09

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: koro-koro questions

Odd question time...

are there variant forms of koro koro that use different fingerings?  The reason I ask is that I sometimes, for fun, do a kind of koro koro that alternates between hole 1, and hole 3 or 4.  I keep the thumb hole shaded.  I sometimes try to move from the hole 1 & 2 alternation, to 1 & 3.  The 1 & 3 alternation sounds a bit weird, admittedly, but it is interesting. 

The sound, of course, changes, with the different fingering, but it still has this koro koro'ish quality.   I'm just curious if anyone else has messed around with this.  Sorry if this is totally confusing.  Just to be clear,  I am not suggesting this as a replacement for koro koro, but just something I muck around with sometimes, in addition to practicing koro koro.

Last edited by Lorka (2010-07-28 09:15:53)


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#10 2010-07-28 09:44:21

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: koro-koro questions

radi0gnome wrote:

pueyrredon wrote:

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

I don't know enough about koro-koro to add much, you're getting information from some of the most knowledgeable players here already. However, I think there's a basic misunderstanding you have with the notes. On a 1.8 the notes have D as the center note, not C... I think, I've never been taught the technique in fine detail, so I could be wrong.

Here's a beautiful rendition of a piece that is known for the technique, he starts using it at about 1:10 minutes in. You can see when he flutters the fingers of his bottom hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRx-B8mb … LLku11KUMw

Since you admittedly don't know what you're talking about, please refrain from talking about it ANYWAY. It is because of the particular fingering for koro-koro, and the slight meri, that the resulting tone is a C (ie, Ri, on a 1.8). Why not go back up and read (since you apparently didn't earlier) the tip from Kakizakai. Then at least, you'll know SOMEthing.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#11 2010-07-28 10:15:15

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: koro-koro questions

edosan wrote:

Since you admittedly don't know what you're talking about, please refrain from talking about it ANYWAY. It is because of the particular fingering for koro-koro, and the slight meri, that the resulting tone is a C (ie, Ri, on a 1.8). Why not go back up and read (since you apparently didn't earlier) the tip from Kakizakai. Then at least, you'll know SOMEthing.

We're not in the bar anymore, friend. I chimed in because I was curious and very open to being corrected. Yes, maybe my ego prevented me from phrasing it as a question instead of admitting I didn't really know. And, yes, the Kakizakai excerpt explained it very well. Thanks for pointing me (and possibly other people who got lost in the discussion) back to it.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#12 2010-07-29 20:24:34

pueyrredon
Member
Registered: 2010-07-25
Posts: 9

Re: koro-koro questions

caffeind wrote:

Marty Regan has also written a paper on various techniques for shakuhachi, and koto.

pueyrredon, check your email. I sent you a bunch of ideas a few days ago.

I didn't receive any e-mail from you....

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#13 2010-07-29 20:32:59

pueyrredon
Member
Registered: 2010-07-25
Posts: 9

Re: koro-koro questions

edosan wrote:

pueyrredon wrote:

Thanks for your answers, but I'm not a shakuhachi player. I'm just writing a piece for it. There should be a topic about this: "Composing for Shakuhachi"....
So if someone could answer this, I'll appreciate:

Which is the exact effect that gives koro-koro?
I understand that it is a special trill, but it is always a four note pattern?
are they always c-c#-c-d?
what should I notate in western notation?
Thanks in advance

http://www.shakuhachichambermusic.com/p … urces.html
http://www.shakuhachichambermusic.com/pages/tuning.html
http://www.shakuhachichambermusic.com/p … ingwm.html

I see you edited the post, I was going to answer you....

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#14 2010-07-30 09:55:51

Austin Shadduck
Member
From: New York, NY
Registered: 2008-09-21
Posts: 38
Website

Re: koro-koro questions

pueyrredon,

I think composing well for shakuhachi is incredibly difficult if you don't play the instrument. It's hard to find consistent info on techniques because a technique can vary from person to person or vary from context to context (although a knowledgeable performer will adjust accordingly to your composition). Also each pitch can be played with a wide range of color, and there are fingerings (usually notated in scores by various katakana) that evoke a specific tone color. So it's extremely helpful to have a teacher to guide you.

With that said, here are some resources that you may find useful if you don't have access to or time for lessons.

Marty Regan is one of my favorite resources for writing shakuhachi music in western notation. Go to his website, http://martyregan.com, and check out his scores, which he graciously provides as .pdfs, along with the corresponding recordings. I think he notates his music in a very clear manner, and hopefully seeing and hearing his music will help you with some notational issues.

Marty Regan also has a book that he translated, Composing for Japanese Instruments, with a section on writing for the shakuhachi. Or you can check out one of his papers on notation:

http://martyregan.com/pdf/composing_for … andout.pdf

Takemitsu's November Steps score is another great resource.

Jeffrey Lependorf's article, Contemporary Notation for the Shakuhachi, in Perspectives of New Music, Vol. 27, No. 2 might help as well, although I probably wouldn't notate quite like he does...

Anyway, koro koro will come up in the reading and scores I mentioned. More specifically, see measure 9 of Regan's Shadows of the Moon:

http://martyregan.com/pdf/shadows_of_the_moon.pdf

This is not a sustained koro koro, but more like an accent before a sustained note (actually, it's just koro). For a sustained koro koro, I might add a vibrato line above the tied Ds in measures 9 to 10. Or you could simply write a C (assuming you're using a 1.8 shakuhachi) and put the trill symbol above it followed by the koro koro symbol. There are many ways to get your idea across.

Last edited by Austin Shadduck (2010-07-30 10:19:41)


“His first, last and only formal instruction for me was embodied in one word: observe.” -Billy Strayhorn on Duke Ellington

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