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Tube of delight!

#1 2006-08-28 05:22:29

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

A bird in a secluded grove sings like a flute.

Willows sway gracefully with their golden threads.

The mountain valley grows the quieter as the clouds return.

A breeze brings along the fragrance of the apricot flowers.

For a whole day I have sat here encompassed by peace,

Till my mind is cleansed in and out of all cares and idle thoughts.

I wish to tell you how I feel, but words fail me.

If you come to this grove, we can compare notes.

Ch'an master Fa-yen (Hõgen) (The Golden Age of Zen 238, 321 n.31)


"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote, 'A flute with no holes is not a flute. And a doughnut with no hole is a danish.'" - [Chevy Chase]

Regards, H.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#2 2006-08-28 11:28:01

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

..

        The moon floats above the pines,

        And the night veranda is cold

        As the ancient, clear sound comes from
           your finger tips.

        The old melody usually makes the listeners weep,
        But Zen music is beyond sentiment.

        Do not play unless the Great Sound of Lao-tsu
           accompanies you.

            ~ Hsueh-tou (980-1052)

Last edited by edosan (2006-08-28 11:28:37)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2006-08-28 13:53:05

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

The natural being would discover wonderful glories in the ordinary experience of life.
The symbol of humanity shouldn't be the lotus or the rose, but the dandelion or the sparrow, for they crop up under the most amazingly adverse conditions.
You talk of the spiritual path in terms of the soar of the eagle, the beauty of the rose, but the dandelion and the sparrow are the simple reality of what you are.

      §


Kia Kaha !

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#4 2006-08-28 22:27:53

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

...


      Not likely either group were there about the enjoyment...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2006-08-28 22:48:57

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
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Posts: 574
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

The fish jump in the attempt to escape an underwater predator, the birds are hungry, we are all hungry.
That is why there is no doughnut.

     §


Kia Kaha !

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#6 2006-08-30 14:18:32

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Hunger and satisfaction -- both illusions.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#7 2006-08-30 16:40:44

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
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Posts: 574
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

dstone wrote:

Hunger and satisfaction -- both illusions.

Okay Darren, we'll put you in the sensory deprivation chamber for a couple of days, see if you still feel the same.

You can have the hole, I'll have the bun.

No shakuhachi for two days.......!

Kel.     §


Kia Kaha !

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#8 2006-08-30 17:38:30

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Karmajampa wrote:

Okay Darren, we'll put you in the sensory deprivation chamber for a couple of days, see if you still feel the same.

How I feel won't change the nature of things.  But I'm game for the chamber anyways...  Where do I sign up?  wink

sigwada wrote:

The key word is blessed (makarios) . By ourselves alone our mind can only see  up to illusions.

I understand that my mind itself is in the realm of illusions, so it can really only experience illusions.  But "blessed are..." expressions confuse me.  They seem presumptuous or discriminatory, or draw intellectual lines at the very least.  I believe that if the state of being blessed exists, then all is blessed and all is not.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#9 2006-08-30 23:14:27

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
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Posts: 574
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

A new-born baby latches onto its mothers lactic nipple because it is hungry, after sucking down nourishment it is satisfied. What is illusory about that ?

All beings live by nourishment, material and intellectual communion.
I don't see this as illusion, I see it as life itself.

Kel.     §


Kia Kaha !

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#10 2006-08-31 03:28:48

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Karmajampa wrote:

A new-born baby latches onto its mothers lactic nipple because it is hungry, after sucking down nourishment it is satisfied. What is illusory about that ?

In this case, there is a gap or distortion between reality (the baby latching) and your intellectual construct of when and why it is happens.  Your mind lives in your model.  The baby lives in its latching.  They are not the same.  The latching is real and it can happen for many reasons.  The idea of hunger is of our own making and we all have our version of it.  And even if our mind's model of the world is basically sound, it's pale compared to reality.  More distortion.  This is the source of illusion.

It's probably very useful (essential?) to live in our minds' constructs sometimes.  This lets us (attempt to) share our realities.  It also creates problems.  So let's call it what it is -- an illusion that's sometimes wrong and usually pale and always colored by how we were trained and cultured. 

Otherwise, we risk taking our models of the world (such as hunger or satisfaction) too seriously, as if they were real.  But they're only smart models and labels.

All beings live by nourishment, material and intellectual communion.
I don't see this as illusion, I see it as life itself.

I like your model.  The fact that you preface with "I see this as..." emphasizes the important part: it is a model in your mind and subject to perception.

And on that note, I must recognize that my response here is a very intellectual construct and likely to be very flawed.  :-)

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#11 2006-08-31 10:03:18

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Always good to keep in 'mind':

     The opposite is also true...





eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#12 2006-09-01 00:35:22

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

The opposite is also true...
What are you referring to Ed ?

I think we confuse the organism with 'self' sometimes, and as such, 'self' is a construct of 'mind' and 'mind' a construct of consciousness in the effort of the questioning intellect to understand, ultimately to survive and reproduce.
'Survive and reproduce' can be applied to all life, consciousness may be another matter. My flow chart is something like this,...direct experience happens through the senses, it is filtered through the feelings of the sub-conscious, then the conscious mind uses intelligence and memory to 'name' the world around it. There is even embellishment into language and imagery. Without the filtering of 'feelings' in the sub-conscious the mind would be over-whelmed with data. Without the identifying of sensations the conscious mind would be a disorderly chaos. Both of these situations would result in the inability of the organism to either survive or reproduce.
The role models the child has will influence their ability to function well within society's conditionings, sane or mad.
All this processing by the organism uses the unconscious state of 'dreaming' to organise and resolve.

"To sleep, to Dream".

Perhaps the Path of Enlightenment involves the discriminating between what is 'direct experience' and what is 'reaction for social approval'.

Where does the hole go when the doughnut is eaten, nowhere, the hole is still there !

Kel.    §


Kia Kaha !

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#13 2006-09-01 01:22:42

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Karmajampa wrote:

The opposite is also true...
What are you referring to Ed ?

...


Everything...


...


Ω


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2006-09-01 20:25:15

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

...


Falling Flowers

Subhuti was Buddha’s disciple. He was able to understand the potency of emptiness, the viewpoint that nothing exists except in its relationship of subjectivity and objectivity.

One day Subhuti, in a mood of sublime emptiness, was sitting under a tree. Flowers began to fall about him.

“We are praising you for your discourse on emptiness,” the gods whispered to him.

“But I have not spoken of emptiness,” said Subhuti.

“You have not spoken of emptiness, we have not heard emptiness,” responded the gods. “This is true emptiness.” And blossoms showered upon Subhuto as rain.


...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#15 2006-09-05 14:34:32

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

edosan wrote:

“You have not spoken of emptiness, we have not heard emptiness,” responded the gods. “This is true emptiness.” And blossoms showered upon Subhuto as rain.

"Be empty, that is all."  -Chuang Tzu.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#16 2006-09-05 19:13:06

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Emptiness, Sunyata, the void
A state absent of all conceptual views.
Emptiness is the essential state from which all phenomena arise. Form and Emptiness are inseparable, "Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form".

Enlightenment has no height or depth, all measurements are finite views.

The task at hand, bhikku, should you take it up, is to come to the unlimited view, to consciously experience the union you are already in.

The important question is, what causes the enlightenment thought to come to fulfillment ?

Kel      §


Kia Kaha !

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#17 2006-09-06 06:10:20

John Roff
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From: South Africa
Registered: 2005-10-21
Posts: 50

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Twixt optimist and pessimist the difference is droll,
the optimist sees the doughnut, the pessimist sees the hole.
The pragmatist eats the doughnut.


'Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.' - Gregory of Nyssa

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#18 2006-09-07 13:13:03

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Nice one, John. :-)

Anyone go on other Zen forums? Have you noticed how so many threads on them decend into people trying to out-do each other by composing 'zen-ier than thou' one liners?

I have trouble enough arguing with my 'self' re. emptiness. 

I'd rather read the old testament than egoistic 'transcendental' twaddle.

I suppose it could be worse: we could all be sea slugs, and type very slowly.

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#19 2006-09-07 18:54:49

baian
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Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

mmmmm donuts  - Homer Simpson

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#20 2006-09-07 19:05:57

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

It is experienced rather than conceptualized. For instance, we all experience moments of 'absorbtion', of varying depths and resulting good feelings. During these moments or periods we are not thinking about how absorbed we are in the activity, only after we come out of that absorbtion might we reflect on it.
My understanding is that this is Emptiness, there is union with the experience, the Ego is not making comparisons, resulting blissful feelings arise.
The absorbtion occurs during any activity, making music, painting, washing dishes, any wholesome activity. When we are 'present' with what is happning, focussed, concentrated and calm. We are not thinking about being somewhere else or what we were doing yesterday. There is no 'self' dialogue.

There are associated bliss feelings and hormonal, chemical shifts in our metabolism. There may also be associated experiences such as what we call 'koan', "the sound of one hand clapping", "blossoms showering as rain". This is a direct experience of the body, not the self. It cannot be known through conceptualizing.

Children experience this more than most adults.

Kel     §


Kia Kaha !

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#21 2006-09-07 22:53:20

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Harry wrote:

I'd rather read the old testament than egoistic 'transcendental' twaddle.

I had a sparring friend named Namdrol, on an old Buddhist forum, who coined the phase "triumphalist universalism" to describe efforts to trump others' contributions with the phrase "all is one."


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#22 2006-09-08 02:32:25

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Harry wrote:

I suppose it could be worse: we could all be sea slugs, and type very slowly.

If you meet the sea slug in the road, salt him.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#23 2006-09-08 05:01:32

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Chris Moran wrote:

I had a sparring friend named Namdrol, on an old Buddhist forum,

Sounds edgy, old Buddhists are the grumpiest!

Regards,

H.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#24 2006-09-08 11:18:20

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

Harry wrote:

... old Buddhists are the grumpiest!

Precisely.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#25 2006-09-08 11:33:08

rpowers
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From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Where Does the Hole Go When the Donut is Eaten?

dstone wrote:

Harry wrote:

I suppose it could be worse: we could all be sea slugs, and type very slowly.

If you meet the sea slug in the road, salt him.

-Darren.

Wouldn't a sea slug be unaffected by a saline environment?


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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