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#1 2010-08-28 20:54:26

Safiya
Member
From: Paris
Registered: 2006-01-20
Posts: 25

healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

To know if anyone has tried some alternative glues on shakuhachi, to avoid the "non authorized for food" glue that we use for mixing with bamboo dust, add some dabs inside the bore for fine tuning, and inhilate it during the whole life of the flute… Since a while, I'm questioning the chemical super (well not so) glue mixed with bamboo powder (for ikagaeshi at top flute) I'm inhaling everyday in playing the flute. It felt very toxic when it was just made, even some days after, then I forgot. But having my lips on it, inhaling it, I'm looking for alternatives for a replacement.
There are some organic powders to mix with water to use on woods, which could be added with bamboo powder, but not sure at what level it is humidity resistant, and some glue in tubes, or in cylinder. Stradivarius were made without superglue, so we should find real alternatives, before we start to become sick, with a zen attitude.
Old flutes do not have this problem, if not recently repaired, just urushi, that imay cause an allergic problem but it seems not cancerigenic, but paradoxaly, it is the modern jinashi, hocchiku or shakuhachi modern repair, that may use these highly toxic chemicals, for which we do not exactly know yet their health damage potential. In Europe, a commision was (and still is) analysing thousands of household chemicals, from which some are now prohibited to be manufactured in Europe. Now cancer have reached such a peak (touching 1 man over 2 in western society) that taking care of that seems a good idea.
So, let's choose to have an healthy blowing ; )

Here below a study about glue in packaging of food published in UK.

"Supermarket food is at risk of being contaminated by a 'highly toxic' chemical found in the glue of packaging labels.
The chemical, which is in the same class of toxicity as mercury, asbestos and hydrochloric acid, can seep through and contaminate food, according to a study.
It has been found in high levels on some of the sticky labels attached to packages of fresh meat, vegetables and tubs of sauce. It could pose a 'particularly severe risk to health' as highly toxic chemicals can cause organ failure and even death in high doses.
The study follows previous research that found chemicals in a wide range of products that may cause infertility in women, cancer, immune system disorders and even neurological problems.
Strict EU safety regulations mean that certain materials can not come into direct contact with food, but there are no rules about the chemicals in label adhesives."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … z0xwkVjEq0


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#2 2010-08-28 22:00:16

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Inhalation of CA fumes while it's curing can be unpleasant, but the literature, both medical and industrial, shows no evidence
of serious, or even mild toxicity. I used the stuff regularly for 20 years as a guitar maker/repairer/restorer and had no problems with it
(other than occasionally gluing myself to myself or to other things). Where good quality CA is sold (usually model or hobby shops) you
can usually find a topical accelerator in a fine mist pump spray bottle. You can spray the stuff on the glued area after everything is as you
want it to be, but what's even better is to pull the pump out of its bottle and use the tube that extends into the bottle from the pump
head as a sort of eyedropper to place a couple of drops right where you want them. Cures the CA instantly and completely.

Note that when you use the accelerator, the reaction is exothermic, and can get quite hot, so watch where you put your fingertips
when applying it.

You should also use the thinnest, lowest viscosity CA that you can find, for best penetration. Never use the gel stuff.

Since CA is waterproof, you can also rinse the area with water after it's completely cured, then blot dry.

Last edited by edosan (2010-08-28 22:04:28)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2010-08-29 10:53:02

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

CA is nasty when curing, but completely non-toxic afterward. MUCH MUCH better than epoxies, which almost all contain a hefty amount of bisphenol alpha, a very potent xeroestrogen which is implicated in testicular cancers and a number of reproductive disorders, probably including low sperm counts (average sperm counts in industrialized countries have dropped by 50% in the last half century or so).

Sorry, but it really does work better than boiled rice paste...

Toby

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#4 2010-08-29 10:55:54

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Bonjour Dominique! Comment avez-vous été?

Safiya wrote:

To know if anyone has tried some alternative glues on shakuhachi, to avoid the "non authorized for food" glue that we use for mixing with bamboo dust,

My research is the same as Ed's.  Once the glue has cured, it is inert. I would be very curious as to what new findings may present.

Old flutes do not have this problem, if not recently repaired, just urushi, that may cause an allergic problem but it seems not cancerigenic, but paradoxaly, it is the modern jinashi, hocchiku or shakuhachi modern repair, that may use these highly toxic chemicals, for which we do not exactly know yet their health damage potential.

Old flutes come in to my shop often for refurbishing due to degradation or improper usage of the original building materials (bad Ji mixture or application, loose inlaid bindings etc...)

I prefer to make real bamboo ikigeashi inserts but I do use the bamboo dust/CA glue compound in certain situations. This old flute came in for some TLC a while back. The owner asked for reconditioning and some playing enhancement if possible. The top was rough and the inside edge had deteriorated but I wanted to preserve as much of the bamboo as possible. I applied urushi over the compound then hand rubbed it in. On this particular flute, a slight ikigeashi improved the playing action and resonance.

http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/compoundiki4.jpg
Before.
http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/compoundiki5.jpg
After.

The study follows previous research that found chemicals in a wide range of products that may cause infertility in women, cancer, immune system disorders and even neurological problems.
Strict EU safety regulations mean that certain materials can not come into direct contact with food, but there are no rules about the chemicals in label adhesives."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … z0xwkVjEq0

We are also looking into food packaging safety in the US.
See here: http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_ … 02284.html

Although it is a slightly different issue, it is still very important. I am always looking for new ways to make things safer for people, animals and the planet so I would love to hear about alternatives.

Bon au revoir
-Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#5 2010-08-29 12:35:10

GREG..
Member
From: ITALIA
Registered: 2007-10-14
Posts: 15
Website

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Hello safiya..i have used for my lasts works a mixture of  resin based glue with bamboo dust...it's non-toxic alifatic glue like titebond orig.,and the result is very good..when it dry,you can sand it,or paint it..very hard glue.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Sq0hVSLGff8/T … aguchi.JPG
For rebuilt parts of the flute i have tried a mixture of wood dust...non-toxic paste,tin 110/g,and i've find it in a restoration shop,have the 90%of wood dust..you can also use it for fill and fine tune the bore.
You can try to make yourself a good wood paste:ingredients 300g of flour-100g bamboo dust-100g of plaster dust,or ceramic powder-and mix all the three ingredients.
Dissolve 3 big spoons of natural glue and one of oil seeds in a cup of hot water..mix all the ingredients until you have a good elastic compound...that's all!..you must conserve it in a vacuum bag and use it..you can model it,or paste a pigment to give colour..
I have used some different non toxic,natural glues,for repair guitars,but i will test it in the future,on shakuhachi,for restoring works.
The next glue i will try,must be animal glue..natural and hard like glass when it dry..it have excellent acoustic properties,and 'one of more important things' it's completely REVERSIBILE!...you must be careful with temperatures.
I'ts one of the most antique and used glue in luthery,but the preparation need time and patience..it's hard to find in shops,notice that there is some different types of animal glue,and i don't know how i can call it in english..the name here is 'caravella'...i know it's sad,but  is made by parts of sheep.
I advice to not use vynilic glue,it dry and remain gummy,you can't paint/sand it,and it stop the vibrations,and do not use poliurethanic glue because it tend to expand,sensibile to UV rays,bad transmission of sound,it degrades quickly.
bye..   greg'yamagoe'

Last edited by GREG.. (2010-08-29 15:28:26)


...'Perceive those things which cannot be seen'..."Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshin"...

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#6 2010-08-29 17:23:55

Safiya
Member
From: Paris
Registered: 2006-01-20
Posts: 25

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Thank you all for your replies, experience and knowledge, all very valuable.
I wanted to start this topic, so anyone may express their finding and benefit to all.
Info about epoxi that you give Tobi, is very valuable to know.
Coating a chemical mixture with urushi, non toxic laquer or topical accelerator, as you mention Edosan, is a good way to cover and eventually neutralize any emanation. This is probably what I will do on my hocchiku, all natural except CA glue (that sound weird but it is what was shown at workshop) or replace the glue with any neutral mixture, probably OK as it don't need to be that strong, just stay there.
Thank you Perry for showing some example of using piece of bamboo, rather than glue, as usual, an excellent and nice looking job!
Thank you Greg for your detailed report, and I suspect, after reading your bio, that when someone had a problem with their health in general, they probably care more to use non chemical products when possible (and 80 years ago it was not even an issue). The same with myself, some accumulation of being exposed to various super modern toxic environnements, have a result to take more care, and at least, questioning and investigate for alternatives.

Healthy and fun blowing to all
Dominique


Through conscious beings, the universe has generated self awareness

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#7 2010-08-29 17:37:16

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Note that CA adhesive will always cure completely by itself given enough time; the accelerator is good to get the curing done immediately,
especially in situations where the CA has some contact with the ambient atmosphere.

CA cures best, under normal conditions and without any accelerator, in the ABSENCE of oxygen (anaerobic reaction), that's why it's so good
at gluing fingertips together – as soon as skin touches skin, with CA in between....ZIP!! Cured...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2010-08-30 09:25:08

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Bonjour Dominique,

The photos of the before and after are of the bamboo dust mixture. Here's a photo of my usual bamboo insert in progess. Bamboo ikigeashi inlay.


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#9 2010-08-30 23:48:08

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Toby wrote:

Sorry, but it really does work better than boiled rice paste...

Toby

But it must be paste made from organic brown rice grown in an ancient Yayaoi-period rice paddy in Kyushu, boiled with water from the Chikugu River — preferably water with a trace of errant bird dropping from a Temminck's Cormorant or a rare Falcated Duck.

Nothing else will do.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#10 2010-08-31 08:40:15

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

Hey!   That sounds like entree # 69 from my crazy mother-in-law's Chinese restaurant!   Something that Perry would definitely order.  smile


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#11 2010-08-31 09:54:31

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: healthy blowing with non toxic glue and filler

mrwuwu wrote:

Hey!   That sounds like entree # 69 from my crazy mother-in-law's Chinese restaurant!   Something that Perry would definitely order.  smile

I can only do take out these days. No time to boil my glue or sit in restaurants. Does your mother-in-law serve shakfin soup? smile


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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