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#51 2010-10-01 10:49:22

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

This is always a fun ball to kick around. It is good to consider what it actually
is you are doing.  Here's my two-bits. Since art is used to express what words cannot,  any attempt to nail it down with a verbal definition will ultimately fail. I don't mean to kill the discussion. Quite the opposite. But when art no longer comes from beyond what we can understand it will be dead!


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#52 2010-10-01 11:13:37

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1983/dim2.gif

Kill it Jeeyum. Kill the discussion.

There's a good fellow!


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#53 2010-10-01 11:46:28

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Sorry bout that. I unconsciously aspire to be The Great Negator. At least I didn't chime in early.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#54 2010-10-01 11:59:23

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Here's a group of musicians in Indonesia kicking it around, making interesting sound and having fun doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrCIEYWbB04

I'll wager none of these guys are older than 23, too young to be saturated in any "tradition" and too young to be "masters" of their instruments. While some might question the musical merits of what they are doing, I have a hard time imagining anyone questioning their "authenticity" in making experimental music, or that it is art of some kind or another .... and that may have to do with the fact that they're not playing on instruments that are soundly locked into "tradition" ... like a shakuhachi for example, or maybe a sarod, or something else that is rarely used outside of tradition.

Based on what I've heard (and enjoyed) from Sabu Orimo, he could sit in with the above group and probably not miss a beat. I think if there's any 'genre' in the background to what Orimo is doing, its probably more along the lines of Masami Akita or Yamazaki Takushi.... no rules.... just interesting noise. Thus his use of the word "noise".


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#55 2010-10-01 13:34:05

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

ABRAXAS wrote:

Here's a group of musicians in Indonesia kicking it around, making interesting sound and having fun doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrCIEYWbB04


Based on what I've heard (and enjoyed) from Sabu Orimo, he could sit in with the above group and probably not miss a beat.

From what I could bring myself to listen to of it, it doesn't seem like it would be hard to join in at all. What is missing is that they don't seem to be coming from a space where they are listening and weighing what their actions will contribute to what is happening before taking them.

At least that's what I see as the "goodness" in the Sabu Orimo video.  When a musical artist, whether trained musician or a non-musician wanting to participate in free stuff, takes a stance of intent listening, they connect with a very deep metaphysical space. I can sort of see where Sabu Orimo is getting his "primitive" label from, as it could be considered as coming from an innate, primordial part of our consciousness. To ignore that space, even in structured music, is generally considered poor musicianship.

To not connect to that space is almost satanic, but from your avatar and username, Abraxas, I think you realize that.  For me, that non-connection to the divine is definitely an acquired taste that I don't feel like struggling to acquire. Path of least resistance you know, play what truly sounds good to you and expand on it...


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#56 2010-10-01 14:11:10

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

radi0gnome wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

Here's a group of musicians in Indonesia kicking it around, making interesting sound and having fun doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrCIEYWbB04


Based on what I've heard (and enjoyed) from Sabu Orimo, he could sit in with the above group and probably not miss a beat.

From what I could bring myself to listen to of it, it doesn't seem like it would be hard to join in at all. What is missing is that they don't seem to be coming from a space where they are listening and weighing what their actions will contribute to what is happening before taking them.

At least that's what I see as the "goodness" in the Sabu Orimo video.  When a musical artist, whether trained musician or a non-musician wanting to participate in free stuff, takes a stance of intent listening, they connect with a very deep metaphysical space. I can sort of see where Sabu Orimo is getting his "primitive" label from, as it could be considered as coming from an innate, primordial part of our consciousness. To ignore that space, even in structured music, is generally considered poor musicianship.

To not connect to that space is almost satanic, but from your avatar and username, Abraxas, I think you realize that.  For me, that non-connection to the divine is definitely an acquired taste that I don't feel like struggling to acquire. Path of least resistance you know, play what truly sounds good to you and expand on it...

That is assuming any given person is capapble of recognizing something coming from an innate primordial part of the un/sub/consciousness of another, or just writing it off as irrelevant racket. As one "noise" musician (Masami Akita I think) when asked "why make this noise?" said,  "What sounds like music to you sounds like annoying noise to me."

I won't go into the theology/neurology debate, or all the problems with what "connected to the divine" even means, that's another discussion alltogether. There are some who would call "that space" you refer to "satanic" to begin with.

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2010-10-01 14:14:35)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#57 2010-10-01 17:05:09

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Yungflutes wrote:

...  Some, IMHO, are missing the point about art or being an artist in today's society. Using "good" or "bad" as criteria is an outdated value system for today's art. Dadaism greatly affected how art is made or practiced today. Their anti-beauty aesthetic was quite vulgar to society at the time.

Yes, I'm a big fan of Duchamp and Man Ray and their descendants Joseph Beuys and Bruce Nauman.

But using Perry's comments simply as a foil:

I wasn't the one introducing the concepts of good or bad, or pretty or ugly, or vulgar and polite into the discussion. As Perry says, those assessments are pretty irrelevant in art/music/writing these days (like since 1945).

Matter of fact I'm a huge lover of many things considered Avant Garde — i.e. The Advance Guard, but that means you have something to advance, a stream of idiomatic progression, evolving content within evolving contexts, or dare I say, tradition.

Not one of the Dadaists was ignorant of the traditions of image-making, sculpture, poetry or film. They were all well-schooled in their arts. Van Gogh was steeped in tradition. All of them had to become competent at their craft and ran the gauntlet of their peers, even their Avant Garde peers. None of them emerged presto-change-o from a vaccum (neither an Electro-Lux nor a Dyson) as a Great-Revolutionary-Primitive-Ur-I-Did-It-All-By-Myself artist.

For grins, see: Vincent Van Gogh, Skull with a Burning Cigarette, 1885

Last edited by Moran from Planet X (2010-10-01 17:06:08)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#58 2010-10-01 17:08:43

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

ABRAXAS wrote:

I won't go into the theology/neurology debate, or all the problems with what "connected to the divine" even means, that's another discussion alltogether. There are some who would call "that space" you refer to "satanic" to begin with.

True. And with some further research I see (from Wikipedia) that "The Swiss Psychologist Carl Jung wrote a short Gnostic treatise in 1916 called The Seven Sermons to the Dead, which called Abraxas a God higher than the Christian God and Devil, that combines all opposites into one Being."

Now I'm all confused. That always happens when I start thinking about metaphysical stuff...


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#59 2010-10-01 18:26:02

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

I wasn't the one introducing the concepts of good or bad, or pretty or ugly, or vulgar and polite into the discussion.

Not exactly, but in post #45 you said:

"But we seriously digress. The question isn't about "art" it's about what makes an artist and why we should acknowledge them. A lot of people or things can create 'art' according to the simplified stimulus-and-response Wiki definition that you quote."

And to me that is sort of a leading question where the obvious answer is that you acknowledge some of the attempts at art that succeeded in creating "good" art. 


Moran from Planet X wrote:

As Perry says, those assessments are pretty irrelevant in art/music/writing these days (like since 1945).

It seems, from the research I did about the whole Abraxas thing that this shift happened around the same time Carl Jung was getting press for his suggestions that darkness was something we needed to embrace to be whole.

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Matter of fact I'm a huge lover of many things considered Avant Garde — i.e. The Advance Guard, but that means you have something to advance, a stream of idiomatic progression, evolving content within evolving contexts, or dare I say, tradition.

But do you really like the way it sounds or looks, or is it just that it's an interesting concept that a urinal can be signed and displayed as art? What is the idiom that John Cage was advancing? I'm not understanding what you say makes "good" avant-garde.

I still say it's when it's done with that common musical intent of listening and trying to add to the experience somehow.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2010-10-01 18:27:47)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#60 2010-10-01 19:08:32

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

ABRAXAS wrote:

Here's a group of musicians in Indonesia kicking it around, making interesting sound and having fun doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrCIEYWbB04

I'll wager none of these guys are older than 23, too young to be saturated in any "tradition" and too young to be "masters" of their instruments. While some might question the musical merits of what they are doing, I have a hard time imagining anyone questioning their "authenticity" in making experimental music, or that it is art of some kind or another .... and that may have to do with the fact that they're not playing on instruments that are soundly locked into "tradition" ... like a shakuhachi for example, or maybe a sarod, or something else that is rarely used outside of tradition.

Based on what I've heard (and enjoyed) from Sabu Orimo, he could sit in with the above group and probably not miss a beat. I think if there's any 'genre' in the background to what Orimo is doing, its probably more along the lines of Masami Akita or Yamazaki Takushi.... no rules.... just interesting noise. Thus his use of the word "noise".

First of all, I could give a rodent's hind-end what these guys are doing big_smile If they call it music, experimental or otherwise, I'd simply reply that they were being disingenuous. Making sounds, making noise, have a good time, sure. Play away. (If you "experiment" with something you have to know what your experimenting with.)

I could care less about Sabu with the sole exception that he/his record company made the claim of being a "Japanese old stone age style" shakuhachi player. I'm taking issue with hyperbole and posturing.

(And, I'm not taking this personally, but I never, ever would say that a musician has to be "saturated" or "locked" into tradition or have to be a "master.")

I do think if Sabu is going to attempt to position himself as a shakuhachi player he should have a _foundation_ in shakuhachi tradition. Just as if I were to claim to be a guitar player I should know something about what guitar music is and the fundamentals of my instrument. But he has every right in the world, no argument, to stick a shakuhachi on his chin and blow his heart out just as I could take a guitar and pluck and thrash to my heart's content. But neither could even remotely be referred to as "experimental music."


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#61 2010-10-01 19:15:26

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

radi0gnome wrote:

...
And to me that is sort of a leading question where the obvious answer is that you acknowledge some of the attempts at art that succeeded in creating "good" art. 

... I'm not understanding what you say makes "good" avant-garde.

I never used the term "good" and I do not think personal preference was the issue that was at hand.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#62 2010-10-01 19:23:51

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

Here's a group of musicians in Indonesia kicking it around, making interesting sound and having fun doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrCIEYWbB04

I'll wager none of these guys are older than 23, too young to be saturated in any "tradition" and too young to be "masters" of their instruments. While some might question the musical merits of what they are doing, I have a hard time imagining anyone questioning their "authenticity" in making experimental music, or that it is art of some kind or another .... and that may have to do with the fact that they're not playing on instruments that are soundly locked into "tradition" ... like a shakuhachi for example, or maybe a sarod, or something else that is rarely used outside of tradition.

Based on what I've heard (and enjoyed) from Sabu Orimo, he could sit in with the above group and probably not miss a beat. I think if there's any 'genre' in the background to what Orimo is doing, its probably more along the lines of Masami Akita or Yamazaki Takushi.... no rules.... just interesting noise. Thus his use of the word "noise".

First of all, I could give a rodent's hind-end what these guys are doing big_smile If they call it music, experimental or otherwise, I'd simply reply that they were being disingenuous. Making sounds, making noise, have a good time, sure. Play away. (If you "experiment" with something you have to know what your experimenting with.)

I could care less about Sabu with the sole exception that he/his record company made the claim of being a "Japanese old stone age style" shakuhachi player. I'm taking issue with hyperbole and posturing.

(And, I'm not taking this personally, but I never, ever would say that a musician has to be "saturated" or "locked" into tradition or have to be a "master.")

I do think if Sabu is going to attempt to position himself as a shakuhachi player he should have a _foundation_ in shakuhachi tradition. Just as if I were to claim to be a guitar player I should know something about what guitar music is and the fundamentals of my instrument. But he has every right in the world, no argument, to stick a shakuhachi on his chin and blow his heart out just as I could take a guitar and pluck and thrash to my heart's content. But neither could even remotely be referred to as "experimental music."

Fair enough.

....and if I really start to analyze what I like about all of the above, it may be as much/more what it isn't than what it is.

I thought hyperbole and posturing were central to being a performing musician! wink

Maybe someday we'll have a central committee to authorize what terms "artists" can apply to themselves so no one gets their panties in a wad!

Fortunately music isn't pharmacology and no one is in control.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#63 2010-10-02 12:12:50

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Forgive me, but my conversation is...
Sabu, for me, is great --  well, he allows his tones to be lacking. I admire his "bad" tones, including the added.
I personally find he sings SLOWLY, pulling these tones on like the sound is just as no-one has heard. To me that's the magic I have heard during listening, when I listened and listened and listened, during months of deep listening...
I ached for deep tones, dry tones, other sounds...
And please forgive me -- this is my first speech!
(Does it make sense??)

Last edited by nyokai (2010-10-02 12:45:12)

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#64 2010-10-02 12:45:15

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 884
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

nyokai wrote:

And please forgive me -- this is my first speech!
(Does it make sense??)

Clear as a bell Phil. smile

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#65 2010-10-02 15:04:40

Stefan02
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2010-08-09
Posts: 6

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

nyokai wrote:

And please forgive me -- this is my first speech!
(Does it make sense??)

Perfect sense! smile

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#66 2010-10-02 15:46:32

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & N๘rre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

And welcome back to the forum! Really good to see you back here! Looking forwards to more of your posts!!!!


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#67 2010-10-02 17:45:09

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Welcome back Nyokai.

Well here we have an example of an educated shakuhachi person who appreciates Sabu Orimo's sound.

I like him too, although his use of the microphone on that video is a bit concerning. I'd have to hear his real sound in the flesh to really decide about his playing. But I do like his music and his general approach to things. He's the only primitive self taught shakuhachi I listen to and enjoy.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#68 2010-10-02 18:56:08

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

...
And to me that is sort of a leading question where the obvious answer is that you acknowledge some of the attempts at art that succeeded in creating "good" art. 

... I'm not understanding what you say makes "good" avant-garde.

I never used the term "good" and I do not think personal preference was the issue that was at hand.

Then back to the issue at hand:

Mr. Moran wrote:

The question isn't about "art" it's about what makes an artist and why we should acknowledge them.

OK, so I found a definition of art that suits me fine, however it allows for examples like a gorilla's primitive drawings as being art, obviously not something to be acknowledged except maybe by anthropologists. I think what you are suggesting, Chris, is that Sabu's performance is somewhat similar to the gorilla's in that it is not worthy of acknowledgment. It seems you're also trying to imply that I brought this "good" and "bad" stuff into the discussion. I don't see much difference between "worthy and not worthy" and "good and not so good".

And there does seem to be a personal preference involved in this on your part. You seem to be battling with, first, the fact that for most individuals the music doesn't sound like much, and second, that he is performing it on a shakuhachi.

You mention that you like some avant-garde music, so I take it that you can get past the part of it not sounding much like music. That leaves us with deciding on the need to from a "shakuhachi police" that will black-ball any artist using shakuhachi from the artistic community if they haven't learned the standard repertoire.

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Just as if I were to claim to be a guitar player I should know something about what guitar music is and the fundamentals of my instrument.

I'm sure there are a ton of guitar players who don't know classical right-hand technique.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#69 2010-10-02 21:33:48

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Then there is a classic definition of musical improvisation as "playing without memory."


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#70 2010-10-02 22:02:29

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

ABRAXAS wrote:

Then there is a classic definition of musical improvisation as "playing without memory."

Nice catchphrase but in fact all improvisors use their own memorized vocabulary in their improvs.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#71 2010-10-02 22:25:47

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

Then there is a classic definition of musical improvisation as "playing without memory."

Nice catchphrase but in fact all improvisors use their own memorized vocabulary in their improvs.

Yeah, I almost added, "that is , of course, impossible."


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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