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#1 2010-10-18 17:11:26

oceanica
Member
Registered: 2009-06-07
Posts: 47

Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

Hi all:  I just purchased another Shakuhachi and am in the process of doing my evaluation.  This brings to mind a question.
I am wondering among you who are professional players and teachers who made your primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuhachi?  Why have you chosen this flute as your go to instrument?  Hope to hear from some of the camp teachers and others. 
I have found that, at least as a beginner, once I get to a certain level of instrument, and can ascertain the obvious issues ( pitch, playability, volume, dynamics ) that I am dealing more with differences than with good or bad per se.  This becomes a very subjective and personal thing. 
The shakuhachi I just got has some pitch issues ( Ro about 5 cent flat chi about 15 cent sharp ), and ro otsu is a bit weak ( at least for me ), but I really like the tonal qualities and it plays well in Kan and Dai kan....sigh...
Your thoughts on this topic are greatly appreciated senseis.
Mark

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#2 2010-10-19 02:34:42

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

My 'go to' 1.8 made by Tsurugi Kyomudo has many reasons for being that other than ones that could have been ascertained by me 25 years ago.  In fact, at that time I struggled with many of the usual things that beginners struggle with and thought myself incapable of determining whether the instrument was indeed good or not.  I trusted my teacher's opinion about it and stayed with it.
Another factor is that learners here in Japan rarely jump from instrument to instrument searching for the right one for them.  Again, it's usually a decision made by the teacher.  So I too, stayed with mine.
As time, playing, practice, troubles, overcomings, experiments, failures and learning progressed, something happened.  I found the sound of the instrument.  For me it took 15 or 16 years.  It may be that I was slower or more inept than some others, but at around that point, many things started working.  I'm convinced that it took me that time to work through the subtleties of the bamboo and workmanship that went into making the instrument.  That bamboo pitted me against many trials and molded me.  You might say that it made kinetic,  potentials in me that were just that in the beginning. The journey was and still is through the bamboo.
Oceanica, you suggest that the qualities that advanced players find must be subjective and personal.  How could they be anything else?  They are  qualities of themselves echoing through the tube.  It's this connection that we are looking for in an instrument and after technique, we often find...ourselves.
And from that end begins another.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#3 2010-10-19 17:49:20

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

oceanica wrote:

The shakuhachi I just got has some pitch issues ( Ro about 5 cent flat chi about 15 cent sharp ), and ro otsu is a bit weak ( at least for me ), but I really like the tonal qualities and it plays well in Kan and Dai kan....sigh...

A 5 cent flat Ro is a non-issue. In fact, if as a beginner you can get all the notes to sound within 5 cents of dead on without any embouchure or breath adjustment on a precisely tuned shakuhachi, you are one extremely talented beginner.   

And, are you talking about just intonation or the equal temperament you find on your tuner. Equal temperament is way off as it is. The equal temperament minor 3rd (Tsu or F on a 1.8) is 15 cents flat of the just intonation minor third and the equal temperament minor 7th (Ha or C on a 1.8) is 31 cents sharp of just intonation. Check out this link and scroll down about half way until you get to the table to see what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament 

I'm not suggesting anyone go and start aiming for 31 cent flat Ha's when you break out your tuner because even though the bottom note on the 1.8 shakuhachi is D, it does not mean that you'd want to play it 31 cents always, but only when you are playing in the key of D.

I know for a fact that just intonation on a synthesizer sounds much, much better than equal temperament, especially if you are playing things that do not modulate, like drones. When a good string section plays or barbershop quartet sings, they play and sing what sounds good, ie., just intonation. That's the basis of a lot of the ear training tools Geni occasionally posts about, they are just intonation drones and the idea is to learn to listen so you get in tune.

I think I need to let some pros and makers take it from here because I don't know if shakuhachi are made to play in just intonation or equal temperament. Or,  if they are tuned to just intonation, what the the root note of the scale they are tuned to is. It isn't necessarily the bottom D. Anyone want to tackle this?


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#4 2010-10-20 00:36:15

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

Jeff Cairns wrote:

My 'go to' 1.8 made by Tsurugi Kyomudo has many reasons for being that other than ones that could have been ascertained by me 25 years ago.  In fact, at that time I struggled with many of the usual things that beginners struggle with and thought myself incapable of determining whether the instrument was indeed good or not.  I trusted my teacher's opinion about it and stayed with it.
Another factor is that learners here in Japan rarely jump from instrument to instrument searching for the right one for them.  Again, it's usually a decision made by the teacher.  So I too, stayed with mine.
As time, playing, practice, troubles, overcomings, experiments, failures and learning progressed, something happened.  I found the sound of the instrument.  For me it took 15 or 16 years.  It may be that I was slower or more inept than some others, but at around that point, many things started working.  I'm convinced that it took me that time to work through the subtleties of the bamboo and workmanship that went into making the instrument.  That bamboo pitted me against many trials and molded me.  You might say that it made kinetic,  potentials in me that were just that in the beginning. The journey was and still is through the bamboo.
Oceanica, you suggest that the qualities that advanced players find must be subjective and personal.  How could they be anything else?  They are  qualities of themselves echoing through the tube.  It's this connection that we are looking for in an instrument and after technique, we often find...ourselves.
And from that end begins another.

Nice one Geoff, I also have been with my wife for over 33 years, she still turns me on.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#5 2010-10-20 01:37:15

Mark Angevine
Member
Registered: 2009-06-09
Posts: 26

Re: Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

Thanks Jeff, great advice for us beginners.Maybe it will curb my appetite for new "girlfriends".
So many shakuhachi, so little time.


"Open mouth, already a mistake"

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#6 2010-10-20 16:12:06

Vermontster
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 5

Re: Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

radi0gnome wrote:

oceanica wrote:

The shakuhachi I just got has some pitch issues ( Ro about 5 cent flat chi about 15 cent sharp ), and ro otsu is a bit weak ( at least for me ), but I really like the tonal qualities and it plays well in Kan and Dai kan....sigh...

A 5 cent flat Ro is a non-issue. In fact, if as a beginner you can get all the notes to sound within 5 cents of dead on without any embouchure or breath adjustment on a precisely tuned shakuhachi, you are one extremely talented beginner.   

And, are you talking about just intonation or the equal temperament you find on your tuner. Equal temperament is way off as it is. The equal temperament minor 3rd (Tsu or F on a 1.8) is 15 cents flat of the just intonation minor third and the equal temperament minor 7th (Ha or C on a 1.8) is 31 cents sharp of just intonation. Check out this link and scroll down about half way until you get to the table to see what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament 

I'm not suggesting anyone go and start aiming for 31 cent flat Ha's when you break out your tuner because even though the bottom note on the 1.8 shakuhachi is D, it does not mean that you'd want to play it 31 cents always, but only when you are playing in the key of D.

I know for a fact that just intonation on a synthesizer sounds much, much better than equal temperament, especially if you are playing things that do not modulate, like drones. When a good string section plays or barbershop quartet sings, they play and sing what sounds good, ie., just intonation. That's the basis of a lot of the ear training tools Geni occasionally posts about, they are just intonation drones and the idea is to learn to listen so you get in tune.

I think I need to let some pros and makers take it from here because I don't know if shakuhachi are made to play in just intonation or equal temperament. Or,  if they are tuned to just intonation, what the the root note of the scale they are tuned to is. It isn't necessarily the bottom D. Anyone want to tackle this?

I know this is off-topic, but I've been wondering about the same question myself.  My bansuris are tunes to just intonation, so I assumed the the Shakuhachi was as well.

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#7 2010-10-21 22:10:29

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

Cool. Notice in the description that "Multiple Temperaments support historical tunings":

http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=267#


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#8 2010-10-21 23:40:09

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Who plays what? Professionals primary 1.8 and 2.4 shakuahchi?

Now my head is pretty boggled, I have been reading through that wiki article, and as interesting as it looks, affter several takes I start to lose track.

I have always tuned my flutes to themselves and 'by ear', and actually, I like it that way, 1. because my ear is already pretty good, and 2. it is very good ear training.

Now I have just downloaded a software 'chromatic tuner' for the Mac from http://www.katsurashareware.com/
There are other tuners there, quite sophisticated but this one speaks to me, very quick to tell me the note, how many cents off exact pitch and the actual frequency.

And as mentioned, 3 cents is nothing to be bothered by, the Shakuhachi is so dynamic there are several reasons why pitch will vary by a few cents each blow.

However, I am now engaging in exploring the variety of tuning demonstrated by this tuner.

Yet, still my preference is to follow my inner audio intuition regarding pitch, less I become an automaton.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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