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#76 2011-01-27 17:17:05

madoherty
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Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

NZN wrote:

The crux of this material vs. bore-shape debate is whether a shakuhachi is an idiophone or an aerophone. Does the sound come from vibrating material or the bore-shape? The material people need to have the wall of the flute vibrating as, for them, that’s the source of the sound. The bore-shape folks could care less if the flute vibrates because, for them, any vibration is largely irrelevant to sound production. Talking about surface roughness, i.e. air friction, while relevant, is a red herring to the basic question. The materials contingent needs to bite down hard on the fundamental question (idiophone or aerophone?) and really realize what they’re arguing.

Claiming that a specific material is needed to achieve a certain quotient of air friction is an entirely different and separate question. And one easily answered.

NZN,

Language is a human-made device that attempts to describe the world and our experience.  There is not a natural correlation between the two, i.e. physics does not follow from our description of it, or our categorical analysis.

Ex.  If we lack a word for something - it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Michael

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#77 2011-01-27 20:18:57

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

NZN wrote:

And one easily answered.

With a firm and resolute "Ahhhhhhhhhh ..."


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#78 2011-01-28 03:29:37

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

radi0gnome wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

O.K. So we got that the material per se doesn't matter- it's the materials' characteristic(s) that is(are) important. Don't you have to have the material to get the characteristics? Have you found some way of separating the characteristics from the material? I'm not going down easy on this one.

I agree, this was from Toby's first post in this thread:

Toby wrote:

With so many variables in the mix, it is literally impossible to say with any certainty that materials cause any difference. 150 years of careful investigation suggest that if the construction, bore dimensions and smoothness are identical, material makes not a whit of difference.

I'm fine with this statement, as Toby mentions that smoothness has to be identical. However, instead of making the statement and then saying that "to be practical, sense the smoothness of materials other than metals are all inherently different, different materials will sound different", Toby goes on to say:   

Toby wrote:

I close with a quote from Benade:

"A fable, the more remarkable since it is always discussed, is that the material of which a wind instrument is made has an influence upon the sound of same. That this is not so rests upon incontrovertible acoustical laws, about which there should be absolutely no more discussion."

I believe Toby took the above quote from Benade out of context because Benade was talking about metals that have a similar smoothness.

As an aside, you see how emotional of a topic this is for shakuhachi players. Can you imagine what it's like for the advanced silver flute student who got talked into spending $5,000 for a gold head joint... or the parent who paid for it as a graduation gift!

Actually no, Benade was talking about all materials, but we need to distinguish between primary and secondary effects of materials. Many people believe that a gold flute sounds different from a silver flute because of the molecular structure of the metal, or its ductility, or internal damping characteristics, or some esoteric, metaphysical property somehow influences the sound. But the walls are nothing but a container: if the container is the same shape and smoothness, the air will behave the same way whatever the materials used to make that container.

Perhaps this is where the confusion lies: different materials have different properties that can (though not always do) affect the way the air is contained.

The basic scientific consensus is that if the dimensions are the same and the smoothness of the walls are the same, the material which is forming those dimensions and is of that smoothness won't affect the sound. This is the primary effect of materials. But there are lots of secondary effects that will affect the sound because they affect one of those two parameters. Here is a partial list:

1. The surface structure of the material is different: Because of the organic nature of wood (or bamboo), there are various macro and microscopic surface variations that are not present in metal. This will, according to Benade's measurements, cause up to 2 dB difference at some point in the harmonic spectrum of the sound. However it is necessary to understand that 2 dB is just on the edge of perception. There will be a subtle difference, but not a dramatic difference. On the other hand, if you look down the bore of a jinashi flute as compared to a jiari, you will see a zillion irregularities large and small; the remains of scepta, "grooves" and irregularities caused by the vascular bundles that run the length of the culms, as well as significant variations in diameter along the length. These are very significant in terms of the final sound and response of the flute, and a wooden flute does not have these. In addition, on a smaller level, there are variations caused by the cellular structure of the bamboo, which again wood does not have. So it is not about the bamboo, but the structure of the bamboo.

2. The manufacturing process acts differently on different materials: Different metals, for instance, have different working properties, and will spring off a mandrel differently. Edges--always very important--may not be the same around tone holes using different materials, even when using the same processes to form them. Woods of different densities and grain structures may be cut differently by a reamer, and then have different internal dimensions when polished smooth. With bamboo, for instance, it is impossible to have as sharp an edge on a hole as one can get in a hardwood. Benade says that edges in the bore are one of the most signficant determinants of response.

3. More expensive materials may be handled differently: When an artisan is making a gold flute, for instance, he may consciously or unconsciously be more careful or exacting or meticulous than when making one out of common old silver. Likewise, plastic Yuus and wooden instruments are not as carefully crafted as good traditional instruments--but can also beat the pants off of bad traditional instruments...

4. People experience what they believe to be true: As Coltman says:

"First, the player and experimenter rarely, if ever have any way of knowing whether the instruments they are comparing have differences other than those of the material, in fact I know of no reports in which the claim for 'no other variation' is made. Second, the musician cannot, under normal playing circumstances dissociate his personal preferences and prejudices from the question at hand. In the case of the three 'flutes' I constructed, nearly every player who picked them up and tried them had a preferences for one or the other. Often he would describe his impressions - the wooden flute has a 'fuller' tone, the silver one 'projects' much better, etc. He was then usually baffled to find that he could not identify any of the instruments under the 'blindfold' conditions I described. The plain facts are that his judgment is influenced by preconceived notions and metal associations of tone quality with other properties of the material. This is a normal human reaction, intensified in the case of those trained to incorporate feeling into their art, and to whom the instrument becomes, in effect, an extension of their own body and personality. I do not belittle this attitude; it is, I believe, a desirable condition for the achievement of the fullest artistic expression. It is just not suited to answering narrow, objective questions like the one I posed - namely: can the material of which a flute is made directly influence the tone quality produced?"

There is an interesting analogy here with the famous placebo effect, in which completely inert pills will help a medical condition. An interesting further effect has just been reported: placebos will help a medical condition even if the patients know they are taking placebos:

'The researchers enrolled 80 people suffering from irritable bowel syndrome, explaining the experiment while framing it positively — they called it a novel "mind-body" therapy.

Half the patients were given a bottle with the word "placebo" printed on it. The pills it held, they were told, were like sugar pills. The patients were told they didn't even need to believe in the placebo effect, but had to take the pills twice daily.

The other half were given no treatment at all.

At the end of the three-week trial, 59% of the patients taking the placebo said their symptoms had been adequately relieved, far outstripping the 35% in the non-treatment group.

"We were all taken aback," Kaptchuk said. "We triple-checked the data before we decided it was real."'

The point is: I believe that we should follow Coltman's advice and play instruments that we feel most comfortable with, which fit us for whatever reason. But it would also be good, I believe, if people knew that objectively speaking, the material in and of itself is immaterial.

Setting the mind free is always a good thing.

It is important to remember that value is quite an arbitrary measure, as indicated by this story about the first aluminum manufactured in the 19th century:

'Henri Sainte-Claire Deville of France substituted potassium with less expensive sodium in 1854 and was able to create enough aluminum for display at the Paris Exposition of 1855. Billed as "silver from clay," aluminum bars were shown alongside France’s crown jewels. The juxtaposition was fitting: rubies, emeralds and sapphires consist mainly of crystalline aluminum oxide.

At that time, pure aluminum was valued at $115 per pound—more expensive than gold. Napoleon III proudly displayed aluminum cutlery at his state banquets, commissioned aluminum equipment for his military and even had an aluminum and gold baby rattle made for his son.'

So I guess the bottom line is that objectively materials may not make a difference, but subjectively, they can make a world of difference; and if they thus influence the player, they end up making a real difference in the final "pudding", the music that flows out of the player and instrument into the world.

And yes, it is indeed an emotional topic. I discuss this on a sax forum, where it is already emotional, but I once dipped a toe into a flute forum, where it is not just a question of a few bucks between lacquer and silver plate, but literally tens of thousands of dollars between nickel, silver, gold and platinum. The flute players went absolutely nuts; they would not even discuss it, they would not even begin to entertain the idea that their gold flute was not going to play any better than somebody else's silver flute. Shakuhachi players at least have the excuse that since the flutes are handmade and one of a kind, and out of organic materials, there are at least secondary ways in which the material really does matter.

Last edited by Toby (2011-01-28 05:56:10)

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#79 2011-01-28 07:28:31

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Toby wrote:

Setting the mind free is always a good thing.

Thank you Toby for taking on this noble task.

And now, we would like to close this sermon with a rousing round of What a Friend We Have in Jesus.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#80 2011-01-28 08:27:32

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Toby wrote:

The point is: I believe that we should follow Coltman's advice and play instruments that we feel most comfortable with, which fit us for whatever reason.

Whether material makes a difference or not this is a good rule to follow, I have no problems here. 

Toby wrote:

But it would also be good, I believe, if people knew that objectively speaking, the material in and of itself is immaterial.

Oh, and if someone thinks they hear a difference, they should just be amazed at how their mind can trick them by holding onto preconceived notions and keep them from being objective. All the scientific data is fine and strongly suggests that there is not a difference. However, to toss back an explanation that any perceived differences are caused by a part of human nature that keeps individuals from being objective is just a leap of faith.

It kind of sounds like the joke in psychology where if someone says that you are in denial, you cannot defend yourself because... well, you are in denial. At least, in the eyes of whoever is saying it to you.         

I still think an experiment where Colyn made some identical flutes out of 2 different woods and got them to some of our Dai Shihan level players to see what they think would go far. I don't accept Coltman's view (that he saved to express in a letter, not a scientific paper, BTW) that musicians are incapable of dropping their preconceived notions. If our testers said "no difference", and I think they are perfectly capable of being objective and saying that, student shakuhachi players could buy with the knowledge that if they think they are hearing a difference that they should question it because players much better than them couldn't hear it. If our testers say "there is a difference" a couple more flutes of the same two woods could be tested and compared to the first two flutes. Then if a difference is perceived between the instruments of the same materials, the experiment would obviously be inconclusive, but Colyn would be getting some great feedback about his quality control.

If Colyn's quality control turns out to be intact, and instruments of the same material sound the same but ones of different materials sound different, it doesn't really matter if the reason is the different characteristics of the material such as edge sharpness or smoothness, on a practical level there is a difference, and that is what is important to someone choosing an instrument.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2011-01-28 10:31:56)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#81 2011-01-28 13:23:45

nSkky
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From: Crowheart, Wyoming
Registered: 2006-09-13
Posts: 22

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

That Galileo’s name has been raised in this thread is appropriate and perhaps relevant. One of the things he did was to realize that rate of fall of falling objects doesn’t depend on the material or size (or shape) of the objects, but on something now called gravity. When he realized that all things fall at the same rate, it was a non-obvious conceptual breakthrough. There is an air friction component to the discussion of falling which allows for misunderstanding. People point out that a dust mote and an anvil don’t appear to fall at the same rate and by doing so feel they had negated Galileo’s fundamental conjecture.

Until about 1600 it was universally believed that heavy rocks fell faster than lighter ones. You can heft them in your hands and feel heavier rocks straining harder to fall—thus they will fall faster. It is a subjective truth, experience seemingly dictates it. But the actual case, the objective  case is different. Everything falls at the same rate. It’s a non-obvious truth which has to be taught to people.

The materials faction of the debate over the origin of shakuhachi sound is letting the air friction component obscure their understanding of a deep basic concept—the sound comes from bore shape. Yes, there is a air-friction component to shakuhachi sound but it is quite small in comparison to the basic concept and certainly doesn’t negate it.

If Dai Shihan level players conducted falling experiments what would they conclude?

All things (regardless of material, size, weight, shape, etc.) fall at the same rate and shakuhachi sound comes from bore shape—to get distracted by peripherals means missing out on a deep understanding of how things work.


Dreams construct the world. --Heyoka

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#82 2011-01-28 17:10:16

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

nSkky wrote:

If Dai Shihan level players conducted falling experiments what would they conclude?

They would probably conclude that two different weighted shakuhachi hit the ground at the same time. smile I'd have to go back and do the research, but the results of the Galileo experiments dropping things off leaning buildings probably weren't all that surprising in themselves, just as many non-literate sailors knew that the earth was round before it was scientifically accepted. It's just that it wasn't really to the best interest of most individuals in that time to talk about that kind of thing because the church believed that anyone who threatened to demonstrate that the universe wasn't earth-centric with theories of gravity and telescopes and such should be sent to the gallows for heresy. 

Most of the "material matters for flutes" proponents did not get their ideas from trying flutes that were built in an attempt to be identical. If the individuals in Coltman's experiments knew that he'd later on say that their conviction that material matters would be chalked up to musicians inability to drop preconceived notions I wonder if they'd have been a bit more careful in what they said. Coltman had the identical instruments, and some of the participants were said to be highly skilled players, but I'm curious how they were briefed. Coltman says that almost all the players stated a preference for one of the flutes, but they were baffled when they found they couldn't identify the flute later. How much of a preference did they express? Coltman says that some even tried to describe what they heard, but it sounds to me like there were some leading questions in there. The subjects were asked to find a flute they preferred, were they given the option to say "hey, when I signed up I thought I'd be able to tell a difference, but sorry, I guess I can't"? Maybe not, as it appears that all the subjects eventually made a choice when asked to find their preferred flute. Were they given an option then to say "wow, I guess I can't tell the difference" when attempting to find it again? Was this experiment set up so that the subject could not possibly drop his preconceived notions if he started the experiment? And then be accused of not being able to drop his preconceived notions after the experiment was finished?

Here is a link to Coltman's paper: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman … n-1.06.pdf

Also, I still question the credibility of the subject musicians, even though Coltman says some were highly skilled. James Galway, despite an even higher level of artistic training that Coltman says cultivates preconceived notions, apparently does not have those preconceived notions: http://www.thegalwaynetwork.com/notes/material.htm     

If Colyn gave two flutes identical as he can make them except for material to one or more of our top players here on the forum, I have absolute confidence that they would be able to evaluate them objectively.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#83 2011-01-28 20:34:36

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

radi0gnome wrote:

Toby wrote:

The point is: I believe that we should follow Coltman's advice and play instruments that we feel most comfortable with, which fit us for whatever reason.

Whether material makes a difference or not this is a good rule to follow, I have no problems here. 

Toby wrote:

But it would also be good, I believe, if people knew that objectively speaking, the material in and of itself is immaterial.

Oh, and if someone thinks they hear a difference, they should just be amazed at how their mind can trick them by holding onto preconceived notions and keep them from being objective. All the scientific data is fine and strongly suggests that there is not a difference. However, to toss back an explanation that any perceived differences are caused by a part of human nature that keeps individuals from being objective is just a leap of faith.

It kind of sounds like the joke in psychology where if someone says that you are in denial, you cannot defend yourself because... well, you are in denial. At least, in the eyes of whoever is saying it to you.         

I still think an experiment where Colyn made some identical flutes out of 2 different woods and got them to some of our Dai Shihan level players to see what they think would go far. I don't accept Coltman's view (that he saved to express in a letter, not a scientific paper, BTW) that musicians are incapable of dropping their preconceived notions. If our testers said "no difference", and I think they are perfectly capable of being objective and saying that, student shakuhachi players could buy with the knowledge that if they think they are hearing a difference that they should question it because players much better than them couldn't hear it. If our testers say "there is a difference" a couple more flutes of the same two woods could be tested and compared to the first two flutes. Then if a difference is perceived between the instruments of the same materials, the experiment would obviously be inconclusive, but Colyn would be getting some great feedback about his quality control.

If Colyn's quality control turns out to be intact, and instruments of the same material sound the same but ones of different materials sound different, it doesn't really matter if the reason is the different characteristics of the material such as edge sharpness or smoothness, on a practical level there is a difference, and that is what is important to someone choosing an instrument.

But the sad and comic truth is that you cannot trust your own perceptions. That, in fact, is why science was invented, to set up objective tests where subjective perceptions can be eliminated. And the experiments in question were hardly "tossing back an explanation". Very detailed experiments have been repeatedly done in double-blind conditions and none so far has shown any indication that material makes a difference. If you wish to be in denial, so be it. But you are in denial. This is not a psychology joke: all you have to do is to provide a link to one single study in which materials have been shown to make a difference; in which players can identify instruments which differ only in materials. Give us that and then we can discuss who is in denial.

And I fear that your proposal about Colyn's test is also flawed. Colyn's quality control, as I have explained, is nowhere near good enough to eliminate subtle differences in dimension. And since we know that subtle dimensional differences are much more important to the final sound than material--even if material does make a subtle difference based on secondary effects--any small differences due to manufacturing tolerances will be much more important than the material anyway. Strictly speaking, then, it will be impossible to make any firm objective statement about the effect of material.

And then there is the question of methodology. As Coltman has shown, it is hardly enough to give players a couple of different flutes--even if they play exactly alike--and ask them to judge if they are still able to mix subjective impressions into the mix. Smith did a study with trombone bells, as I have mentioned, in which at first in blind tests, the players were able to identify the different bells. Then the researchers realized that there were weight differences, and even this very subtle clue might be affecting the results. After the bells were counterweighted to eliminate differences, NONE of the ten pro players could tell them apart--even though there were significant differences between the produced sound (about equal to the difference that wood would make as a wall material in a flute instead of metal).

So what would happen is this: players would try Colyn's two flutes, find them different (because of weight or feel or due to small dimensional differences or because it is dark ebony instead of lighter rosewood) and say "flute A plays darker than flute B". And suddenly the word would spread: "a flute made out of wood A is better if you want a darker sound". This would reinforce the meme that ebony plays darker than rosewood, and in cases where there was really no real difference, players struggling to find distinctions might well "feel" that, yes, the ebony flute does seem darker...and the meme spreads and the cycle of misinformation continues.

It is like flying on instrument. Do you know the concept of the "graveyard spiral"? It is what killed JFK Jr. Without an objective view of the ground as a way to keep your wings level when flying, any deviation from level will tend to throw you into an increasingly steep spiral, but because of the laws of physics, as long as the acceleration is constant, you won't feel anything. In fact, trying to level out will feel all wrong.

I have experienced something similar when diving deep or in cloudy water, in which the surface is not visible. The rule is: If you want to ascend, follow your bubbles. This sounds obvious, but when you feel you know where the surface is, and then when you breathe out your bubbles go down, it takes an utmost effort of will to swim in a direction you feel absolutely is wrong. Do the bubbles lie? Does that indicator which tells you your wings are at an angle of 20 degrees and increasing lie? Denial of objective measurement as based on physical laws in these cases can kill you.


Of course, not as much is at stake in the question of materials in flutes, but the principle is exactly the same. Of course it is always possible that the attitude indicator is malfunctioning, or the bubbles are caught in a current, but what is the more likely explanation, and on which will you base your decisions?

Last edited by Toby (2011-01-28 21:06:26)

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#84 2011-01-28 21:35:39

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Toby wrote:

... science was invented ...

Precisely.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#85 2011-01-28 21:38:05

edosan
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From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Toby wrote:

... science was invented ...

Precisely.

And those of us that have a clue are profoundly thankful, eh, X?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#86 2011-01-28 23:39:31

Kerry
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From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

edosan wrote:

profoundly thankful

Bumps, sludge, grind and grit and objective, scientific observation....it's all good fellas smile


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#87 2011-01-28 23:48:58

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

edosan wrote:

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Toby wrote:

... science was invented ...

Precisely.

And those of us that have a clue are profoundly thankful, eh, X?

I'm very happy that you and Toby have got religion. Everyone should have a belief system they are comfortable in.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#88 2011-01-29 00:18:01

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Toby wrote:

So what would happen is this: players would try Colyn's two flutes, find them different (because of weight or feel or due to small dimensional differences or because it is dark ebony instead of lighter rosewood) and say "flute A plays darker than flute B". And suddenly the word would spread: "a flute made out of wood A is better if you want a darker sound". This would reinforce the meme that ebony plays darker than rosewood, and in cases where there was really no real difference, players struggling to find distinctions might well "feel" that, yes, the ebony flute does seem darker...and the meme spreads and the cycle of misinformation continues.

Now that you mention it, in reality I have played a lot of David Brown wood flutes and the best one by far was made of ebony. So I foolishly leapt to the conclusion that ebony might be a superior wood for constructing flutes. Oh and the ebony flute I played by Peter Ross was truly great. Is it possible that ebony is actually a good wood for making shakuhachi?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#89 2011-01-29 01:40:08

Toby
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From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

I have a beautifully-made ebony queen and it sucks compared to the reed ones I have.

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#90 2011-01-29 06:33:46

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Toby wrote:

I have a beautifully-made ebony queen and it sucks compared to the reed ones I have.

"Ebony Queen", don't want to go there.

But as far as the flutes are concerned, I didn't have any "preconceptions" about which flutes might or might sound better depending upon the wood, I just played them and decided the ebony ones sounded better than the maple and other ones.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#91 2011-01-29 07:34:14

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

Toby wrote:

I have a beautifully-made ebony queen and it sucks compared to the reed ones I have.

"Ebony Queen", don't want to go there. ...

http://www.thechesszone.com/images/articles/ebony_queen.jpg

I'm sure no prurient connotations were intended there, Brian. Cryptic, yes.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#92 2011-01-29 09:24:39

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Posts: 1030
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Toby wrote:

So what would happen is this: players would try Colyn's two flutes, find them different (because of weight or feel or due to small dimensional differences or because it is dark ebony instead of lighter rosewood) and say "flute A plays darker than flute B".

Are you that sure of the outcome? I guess I'm guilty too, if the experiment was conducted my bets would be that they would not find a difference... unless they were caused by dimensional variances and I suggested comparison to a flute of the same material in an attempt to rule that out.

I still trust the top players to be able to be objective. I trust that while they are flying this plane without instrumentation that they'd get on the announcement system and say "buckle up" rather than "I'm so good I just know where I'm going". What we would be doing in this experiment is using the top level players as scientific measurement instruments because while we know that our non-human instrumentation will always find subtle differences due to issues not related to material, we do not know how much difference there needs to be for a highly trained musician to detect it.       

If you wanted to set up something less flawed, do an experiment similar to Coltman's but with musicians who we trust. Coltman does state: "Of course, it is possible that individuals exist whose discriminatory senses are keen enough to find a distinction, but if so they certainly are not common." That statement is pretty vague, does he mean high-level players? Those aren't common. I suspect that may be what Coltman meant, because in the next paragraph he says: "One player did, correctly, point out that one of the three instruments appeared at first to be slightly flat. This effect is due to the high thermal mass of the heavy copper tube...".  I'm surprised that only one of his test subjects noticed it, something like that should be perceptible to most high level musicians. There is another modification I'd like to make to Coltman's experiment aside from the test subjects, and that is to allow them to opt out and state that they cannot select a flute that they think they can find again if they can not hear enough difference and use that as a test result rather than encourage them to guess and say "see you guessed wrong" and conclude that musicians have preconceived notions skewing their judgment.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2011-01-29 09:31:01)


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#93 2011-01-29 10:07:11

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

edosan wrote:

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Toby wrote:

... science was invented ...

Precisely.

And those of us that have a clue are profoundly thankful, eh, X?

Not sure, every once in a while a paradigm shift occurs that blows me out of the water.

Here's an excerpt:

"As a paradigm is stretched to its limits, anomalies — failures of the current paradigm to take into account observed phenomena — accumulate. Their significance is judged by the practitioners of the discipline. Some anomalies may be dismissed as errors in observation, others as merely requiring small adjustments to the current paradigm that will be clarified in due course. Some anomalies resolve themselves spontaneously, having increased the available depth of insight along the way. But no matter how great or numerous the anomalies that persist, Kuhn observes, the practicing scientists will not lose faith in the established paradigm for as long as no credible alternative is available; to lose faith in the solubility of the problems would in effect mean ceasing to be a scientist.

In any community of scientists, Kuhn states, there are some individuals who are bolder than most. These scientists, judging that a crisis exists, embark on what Thomas Kuhn calls revolutionary science, exploring alternatives to long-held, obvious-seeming assumptions. Occasionally this generates a rival to the established framework of thought. The new candidate paradigm will appear to be accompanied by numerous anomalies, partly because it is still so new and incomplete. The majority of the scientific community will oppose any conceptual change, and, Kuhn emphasizes, so they should. To fulfill its potential, a scientific community needs to contain both individuals who are bold and individuals who are conservative."


As in the excerpt, practitioners of the discipline, shakuhachi players, are observing the anomaly that material does seem to have an effect. Coltman is in the conservative camp, but rather than trying to tweak the current paradigm to fit observations of the practitioners, he is dismissing them as errors in observation.

At least Toby isn't about to report us to the Inquisition smile

Science does change it's mind sometimes, the phlogiston theory seemed like a good explanation for fire for a while.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2011-01-29 10:08:15)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#94 2011-01-29 10:18:41

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

To jump in here, my english to bad to understand everything writin in this topic and I dont know if this was mentioned before but if you want to test the difference you have to blow the same ammount of air with the same shape of your lips, the same position of your body and organs in it in two different flutes. If then there is a change you can truly say there is a different.

If you let 2 different persons play the same flute there will be also a different so I think Shakuhachi with there individual shapes and so on will be a bad thing to test this.

So if you want to have a clear test you have to get two flutes with exatc the same mesurements but other material used and a tool to have the same envoirement to test the differents in sound.

Do anybody of you ever have made this? Or the tools to made this?

I would love to know if this is really the case but I think getting a proof of it would be a long sientific road but the only way to make this cleafr

If not this topic will never come to an end.

All the best and be well,

Last edited by Christopher B. (2011-01-29 12:16:34)


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#95 2011-01-29 12:04:45

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
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Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Hello everyone, I am enjoying the new information this thread has produced. But as amoderator, I would like to kindly point out some of the Forum rules:
Respect other forum members

When posting to the forum, please be nice. Respectful, civil interaction and debate keeps us closer to the original purpose of a forum. Take the high road. Be kind to newcomers. If they ask questions that seem obvious, (or whose answers seem easy to find) cut them some slack. Many valued contributors started out this way. Treating newcomers kindly makes them more likely to turn into the valuable community members we all know and love.



Personal Disputes

These should never intrude on forum discussions or topics. These include personal attacks, business grievances, flame wars, etc. Heated debate or exchange between individuals should be handled privately. Please do not respond to posts of this nature. Even if your intentions are good, threads of this type only drag out the drama, and that's not an option here.

This is a BBQ, I'd like to stick around until my burger is done smile.


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#96 2011-01-29 13:08:57

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Hi Perry,
     You are, of course, absolutely correct.  My apologies for any perceived rancor. As a point of some clarification, Ed and I have a  strong off forum relationship and can "poke" each other with no fear of umbrage being taken. To somebody who didn't know that, we might sound disrespectful to each other. Not the case. I really have to learn to make the smiley faces. They help to indicate intention. As far as I am concerned, there is peace in Shakuhachi Valley.
           All the best, Perry
                 Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#97 2011-01-29 13:32:45

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

I think Perry Yung will be the winner of the SuperBowl of Love and Compassion. smile smile smile    That's what they look like,  Jim Thompson! smile


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#98 2011-01-29 13:44:14

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Yungflutes wrote:

Hello everyone, I am enjoying the new information this thread has produced. But as amoderator, I would like to kindly point out some of the Forum rules:
Respect other forum members

This is a BBQ, I'd like to stick around until my burger is done smile.

Jim Thompson wrote:

As a point of some clarification, Ed and I have a  strong off forum relationship and can "poke" each other with no fear of umbrage being taken. To somebody who didn't know that, we might sound disrespectful to each other. Not the case.

Thanks for the reminder Perry. It's always good to think about forum etiquette.
Especially with a hotly debated topic.

And thank you also Jim for making that very good point. One of the limitations of
a forum environment is being able to recognize friendly jabbing thrown with a twinkle.

One of the advantages of a forum environment is that we have time to think about
what we post. With this benefit, it's a great opportunity to practice grace and show
respect for those we may disagree with. That can only help us all learn. It is also a positive
contribution for future readers of these pages.

Keep up the the good flow of information.

Ken

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#99 2011-01-29 15:29:42

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Being a dedicated pluralist, I'd like to quote Ken's quote:

"Inquiry is the death of certainty."

along with:

"Certitude is not the test of certainty. We have been cocksure of many things that were not so.

"The life of the law has not been logic; it has been experience."

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

And son't forget those smilies folks! wink wink wink


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#100 2011-01-29 18:31:03

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Do materials used affect sound?

Jim Thompson wrote:

Aha! It is as I suspected. We don't disagree. Let's see if we can come up with a statement we could all agree on. How about "The characteristics of the material are one of many factors that effect tonal quality". I'll settle for that. The discussion of whether or not you can separate a material from it's characteristics is another discussion we'll leave to the academians. Maybe they can get a grant parsing that one out.
   P.S.   Did I actually hear Ed'o call somebody ornery? It made my day.

I would have to have it say "The characteristics of the material, if they affect wall smoothness and/or geometry of the bore, are among many factors that can affect tonal quality and response of a woodwind instrument." Otherwise we are back where we started.

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