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#1 2006-10-16 06:15:31

MITKOM
Member
Registered: 2006-10-16
Posts: 1

difference between synthesized shakuhachi and the real instrument

I listened to Enigma - Sadness, Sledgehammer and Michael Bolton - Can i touch you there, and i have this question.
I know the sound of the shakuhachi in these songs is computerly modified.
I have also listened to some of the best performers of the real instrument and i can hardly tell it is one and the same thing.
Of course the Enigma shakuhachi is what i liked better and i was wondering whether the instrument can create that kind of sound. ICan the difference that huge really?

Please somebody answer this question for me...i will be very grateful.
Thanks in advance

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#2 2006-10-16 09:51:53

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: difference between synthesized shakuhachi and the real instrument

MITKOM wrote:

Of course the Enigma shakuhachi is what i liked better and i was wondering whether the instrument can create that kind of sound. ICan the difference that huge really?

Music like Enigma's is a collage of sounds that have been created by producers and engineers. The shakuhachi is the source material, but it has been so heavily processed that it bears little resemblance to the real world of live unmodified shakuhachi playing.

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#3 2006-10-16 16:08:03

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: difference between synthesized shakuhachi and the real instrument

Hi Mitkom,

I'm familiar with Enigma's synthesized flute sound, at least from their early recordings.  A shakuhachi, it isn't.  You're going to have to resort to electronics, as Enigma did, to create their "flute" sound.

There are three possibilities they used to generate such a sound...
1) it was a "shakuhachi" preset, heavily modified
2) it was an original flute recording they made or acquired, heavily modified
3) it was modelled (a common model of that era was FM -- not very realistic for wind instruments), and heavily modified

I suggest posting your question also in Enigma or recording engineer circles, otherwise you're unlikely to find the magic sequence of hardware, data, and knobs that made that sound.

And a little more synthesized "shakuhachi" history, more on the MIDI side...  "Shakuhachi" became a fashionable preset name in MIDI synthesizer gear in the late 1980s.  To standardize things among manufacturers, the General MIDI standard in 1991 made "shakuhachi" program number 78, which means basically every sample-based synth engine since then (and some before) include a "shakuhachi".  Each manufacturer and potentially each model will have its own interpretation of what "shakuhachi" is.  They all used differnt source samples.  Some didn't even use samples, but math models like in an FM synth (think DX7, but that was pre-GM).  They all sound different.  On top of that, every synth engine has its own parameters to tweak such as filters, eqs, ADSR, and effects and most let you layer multiple sounds together and mix or trigger them according to velocity or aftertouch or anything else you can sweep with a pot or fader.

That's if it was a sample-based MIDI patch.  If it was an original sample or model, then the sky's the limit.

Then, as Phil says, you throw in a producer and engineer and their own preferences and expertise, and what started as a low-resolution shakuhachi approximation has now morphed into something that you'll never be able to press a button to reproduce.  Sometimes the artists and producers want it that way.

Back to your question...  Enigma's early pieces and pieces like Sledgehammer pre-dated General MIDI.  This doesn't mean it wasn't a "shakuhachi" preset, but it makes it less likely and either way, this was also the era of sampling workstations like the E-mu Emulator so any of what you're hearing may have been an original sample, heavily modified and layered.

So the easiest way to "play" Enigma's sound, if that's what you really want, is to find an extractable sample of it in their music.  Put that sample into a sampler (software or hardware), and map it across a couple of octaves of a keyboard.  Or even a wind controller.  You might find a small USB music keyboard and some free sampler software for $100 and be sampling and playing away.  (With your own effort to record and extract the flute sound from their music.)   That's if you really want to reproduce -their- sound.

Another fun diversion into synthesized wind instruments, if you want to make your own sound (and you don't want it to involve bambooo)...  Yamaha's VL series of engines can produce some really cool wind sounds, with wide pitch and timbre controls that allow more natural expression and variation.  A wind controller isn't as cheap as a keyboard, but they're around.  Not to imitate the shakuhachi, but to have some fun...

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#4 2006-10-16 19:54:15

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: difference between synthesized shakuhachi and the real instrument

And if you ask your question on other forums, I'd leave out the part about listening to Micheal Bolton;)

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#5 2006-10-16 21:03:26

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: difference between synthesized shakuhachi and the real instrument

If you're not familiar with Enigma (or you're just a masochist that wants to hear a nasty shakuhachi approximation), I grabbed a sound byte from a CD.  Yes, I own it... the shame of it all...

Enigma "Sadeness" (excerpt)

Keep in mind you're listening to 1989/90...  When dancing in acid wash jeans to Gregorian chants mixed into club music was popular...  Oh, the shame...

Where is my inside voice when I need it?

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#6 2006-10-16 21:21:27

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: difference between synthesized shakuhachi and the real instrument

I like "Sadeness" too.
Thats when I heard shakuhachi for the some time..dancin.

I might even try to play that with my band;-)

Geni

Last edited by geni (2006-10-16 21:23:52)

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#7 2006-10-17 11:15:12

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: difference between synthesized shakuhachi and the real instrument

i was not sure if this question was a joke or not. Especially the Michael Bolton part. That guy sounds soooo incredibly constipated when he sings. Does he use shakuhachi samples in some of his dreadful songs?
It should be fairly easy to tell the difference between a canned, artificial shakuhachi like in the enigma recordings (yeah, i admit i have heard that dreck) and a real shakuhachi. One has life, one does not.  Sort of like the difference between a canned  beet and one fresh from the ground. Hard to imagine that one cant tell them apart.


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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