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#1 2006-11-13 15:35:12

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

I've had this problem for a while now, ever since I started to get decent sounds in Kan. Basically, more or less all my notes as about one step off, especially the lower ones. Playing Ro no Kan with all holes completely closed gives me almost perfect but loud Tsu Meri. Same deal for Tsu Meri no Kan, which jumps to Tsu Chu Meri or so. I have checked this with a tuner, but it's really obvious if I play a tune like Sakura that starts with the Ri->Ro->Tsu Meri pattern. Playing I instead of Ro gives me a proper pitch and the melody sounds right. With Ro no Kan, it isn't even close enough.

I can blow fairly clear Kan notes and they aren't distorted like they used to be. Still, the pitch is clearly off. I just can't see what is causing this. I have tried not moving my head at all between Ri->Ro as well as trying to move it as much as possible to get the pitch right. Neither works really well and the only way to get a sensible Ro involves such steep head tilts that playing becomes more or less impossible. I tried some tricks that were suggested in Abbott's book, such as raising the flute from the end and simply blowing harder. While these do make it kind of easier to get to Kan, the pitch is still wrong. I also tried some of the alternatives that I've seen (opening top hole slightly, opening second hole slightly etc.). None of those performed much better and gave me more or less same pitch.

From what I can tell, it's not a problem with my flute either. I have two flutes where this works exactly the same and have tried one that was made out of wood and was thus in more or less perfect tune. Every single time my Ro no Kan, no matter how clear, is way too high.

Is there some dumb mistake I'm making here? Is there a significant different between how you blow Ri and Ro no Kan, apart from the lip issues? Can anyone think of any obvious reasons what would cause the pitch to jump up that much?

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#2 2006-11-26 13:42:15

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Sorry for replying to my own post.

I have a request to make. Could someone with access to a microphone record himself playing I (low octave, holes 3-5 open, pitch of Ro no Kan) and Ro no Kan? Quality of the said recording doesn't really matter. If possible, keep the sounds as plain and clear as possible so that it's easier to compare them.

This problem is making me pull hair every now and then. Right now I tried to play Sakura to my girlfriend who has a much better sense of pitch than I do. I played it as Ri->I->Ro no Kan, which should technically sound like playing Ro no Kan twice. Yet, it comes out as perfect Ri->Ro->Tsu meri. For whatever reason that I can't figure out, my Ro no Kan is almost perfect Tsu meri. Tuner agrees with me, the pitch is almost precisely the same as Tsu meri.

If someone could make a short recording of those two notes and either send it to me or link to it, it would really help a lot. That way I'd at least have a reference to go with. I'm playing on a 2.5 flute mostly, so a recording on something in 2.5-2.7 range would be nice although not necessary.

Thank you in advance.

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#3 2006-11-27 10:20:51

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Are you sure the problem is not that your Ri and I are both too low rather than that your Ro is too high?

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#4 2006-11-27 14:52:40

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

nyokai wrote:

Are you sure the problem is not that your Ri and I are both too low rather than that your Ro is too high?

When I try this with a tuner on a 1.8 flute that should be very close to perfect tune, it clearly shows that Ro no Kan is of the same pitch as Tsu Meri should be on such a flute. It's not just roughly close to that but almost exactly on spot. What you suggest is in fact what I assumed at first. I tried to play the Ri/I as kari as I could but the pitch would not go much higher than it does when I play normally. I also tried to meri the Ro a lot but still could not get the pitches to match. The Ri/I pitches are correct according to the tuner but the Ro is one step too sharp.

I should get this issue resolved on my next lesson. The unfortunate part is that since I need to travel to another country for this, I can't take them as often as I'd like to. For now, I will try what you suggested again and see if I can get the pitches to match by tweaking my Ri and I as well. Thank you for the suggestion in any case.

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#5 2006-11-27 15:39:34

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

amokrun wrote:

I should get this issue resolved on my next lesson. The unfortunate part is that since I need to travel to another country for this, I can't take them as often as I'd like to.

That's dedication!  Good luck!

amokrun wrote:

I tried to play the Ri/I as kari as I could but the pitch would not go much higher than it does when I play normally.

On the topic of sharpening Ri and I...  You mentioned you tried opening the 2 hole "slightly".  Try opening the 2 hole completely.  FWIW, I have a chokan that I play with 2 open for Ri and I.  It's not going to sharpen them a semitone, but it'll be in the right direction for you, I think.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#6 2006-11-27 16:21:47

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

dstone wrote:

On the topic of sharpening Ri and I...  You mentioned you tried opening the 2 hole "slightly".  Try opening the 2 hole completely.  FWIW, I have a chokan that I play with 2 open for Ri and I.  It's not going to sharpen them a semitone, but it'll be in the right direction for you, I think.

Just to clarify, I'll refer to the thumb hole as hole 5 and the farthest hole as hole 1 here. It's not the first time I get confused with which hole is being talked about.

The two flutes I have behave rather differently at that point. 1.8 flute plays Ri the same regardless of whether or not you close the holes 1 and 2. There is no notable difference in the tone. The 2.5, however, does change a bit if you open those holes. It's not a big difference but you can hear it. I still close them both as per recommendation from my teacher who mentioned that it's easier to get used to it right away so you don't get bitten by a flute where it makes a difference.

When I last played around with a tuner, I tried to forcefully play Ri as sharp as I could. On 1.8, I can play it a bit too sharp if I want to. My normal Ri is close enough to correct according to the tuner. Even if I force Ri to be sharp, it's still not enough to make the Ro no Kan sound correct. My technique with Kan notes in general is far from good yet, so it's a tad hard to meri those a lot. I tried to meri the Ro no Kan in hopes of making it play correctly but could not do it. I can get it about half way there, but at that point the sound starts to weaken too much. I don't think playing it *that* badly meri is the answer, though.

Thanks to everyone for help on this. This particular issue has been annoying me for a long time now. I can generally play up to Re no Kan or so consistently, so once I can work out why my pitch is one step too sharp, I can access a whole lot of new pieces that I have been unable to play so far. Good thing is that playing is so much fun that you don't even think about giving up despite feeling like being totally stuck.

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#7 2006-11-27 18:10:21

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly, but it sounds like you may be playing your otsu register too meri.
I adjust my angle by first playing all holes open in otsu (or 1 and 2 closed, depending on flute) then playing all holes closed in kan and checking that they are of the same pitch, by ear, as I don't use a tuner. Once they are the same I then accept this position for the otsu register and meri/keri from there.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#8 2006-11-27 18:42:50

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Karmajampa wrote:

I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly, but it sounds like you may be playing your otsu register too meri.
I adjust my angle by first playing all holes open in otsu (or 1 and 2 closed, depending on flute) then playing all holes closed in kan and checking that they are of the same pitch, by ear, as I don't use a tuner. Once they are the same I then accept this position for the otsu register and meri/keri from there.

That does sound like a logical explanation. However, my tuner claims that my otsu register is correct. My 1.8 is to my knowledge pretty close to being in correct pitch. I do a lot of what you suggest. I first blow I with all holes but the two open and then Ro no Kan with all holes closed. The pitch I get is correct for the first but not correct for the second case. A tuner agrees with me that the first note is correct on a 1.8 flute. The tuner also agrees with me that the pitch is not correct in the second case. I have tried to play games with adjusting the pitch, but I am not able to drop the Ro no Kan pitch enough so that it would be correct. The problem would be clear if the first note would also be wrong, which it isn't.

Between those two notes, do you change your chin tilt at all or do you play them the same way?

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#9 2006-11-27 19:41:56

gmiller
Member
From: Ozello Trail, Fla
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 109

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Hello amokrun.....

Perhaps you are trying too hard...... perhaps it is time to put the tuner aside and simply play from the heart; the sound cannot be forced; the more we try to force the sound the more we change all the other aspects; breath, embouchure, fingering, posture, etc.

When I listen to master players I hear heart; not tuner......

Food for thought.

George

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#10 2006-11-27 20:06:33

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

gmiller wrote:

Perhaps you are trying too hard...... perhaps it is time to put the tuner aside and simply play from the heart; the sound cannot be forced; the more we try to force the sound the more we change all the other aspects; breath, embouchure, fingering, posture, etc.

To be completely honest, I don't actually play with a tuner all that much. I try to get in a couple of hours of playing every day, most of which is simply random playing with no particular intention other than enjoying the playing. Most of the time when I rely on something like a tuner is when I encounter some kind of problem that I can't seem to figure out otherwise. I recently started taking lessons but I still can't get to them very often. As such, I try to utilize other ways to ensure that what I learn is a step to the right direction. At first I did simply try to learn the Kan register as part of normal playing. After a good while of trying and not getting it right, I gave a tuner a shot to see why my head was telling me that the sound isn't right.

Of course, I agree with your general idea. There is a lot more to it than just getting the pitch perfectly right. Part of the reason why I'm putting so much effort into this particular issue is that I fear that I may end up first learning this wrong and then getting used to correcting that error in an even worse way.

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#11 2006-11-27 20:41:10

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

amokrun wrote:

Between those two notes, do you change your chin tilt at all or do you play them the same way?

For the record: There is no significant difference in playing posture (meri/kari) between Ro-otsu and Ro-kan. Only difference is air velocity.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#12 2006-11-27 20:44:42

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Your tuner says the otsu register is correct, true, and the kan register is high, true, and this says to me that the flute is tuned slightly flat when compared to the western tuning. This is not uncommon or a fault as shakuhachi are not necessarily tuned to the western pitch standard. The flute is tuned to 'itself', and in this case, in my opinion, you cannot use the tuner for the purpose you have been using it.
Check out my practice of matching those two notes, all holes open in otsu and all holes closed in kan, rather than change the angle of my head, I change the position of the flute, tilt it slightly down to raise the pitch, plus possibly some minute alterations of the chin positioning and even lip positioning, sometimes bringing the lower lip forward. But you should find that at a particular position those two notes are identical. This, I think is possibly the 'home' position, I don't know, I am not a teacher or avid student of traditional Japanese style, I play my own style. But I also make shakuhachi, about 100 to date and every one is slightly different and tuned to itself rather than a western standard or tuner.
That is my opinion, your tlute is not tuned exactly to the tuner settings, and both lower and upper registers will appear off note to the tuner but you should be able to play the flute in tune with itself.

Now if this creates a problem for you when you are listening to a piece and trying to play what you hear, I suggest you find a software program that will transpose pitch, It may not be easy initially, but if you persist your own ear for pitch will develop in time.


If it is a 1.8 you may need to lower the pitch of the recording, but you will find not all 1.8 flutes are in tune with each other.
Regards,
Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#13 2006-11-27 21:08:36

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Karmajampa wrote:

Your tuner says the otsu register is correct, true, and the kan register is high, true, and this says to me that the flute is tuned slightly flat when compared to the western tuning. This is not uncommon or a fault as shakuhachi are not necessarily tuned to the western pitch standard. The flute is tuned to 'itself', and in this case, in my opinion, you cannot use the tuner for the purpose you have been using it.

I will have to try that. The 1.8 I'm using was made by Monty Levenson. His flutes are apparently usually pretty well tuned to western scale and not to themselves as is usually the case with jinashi flutes. On the other hand, your explanation does make sense and when I do the math, that would explain the issue.

I don't have a flute with me right now, but as soon as I get to one, I'll try your idea out. I'll post about the results once I know more. I know that I have a tendency to easily play too meri (after all, who doesn't at first), so your explanation is easy for me to believe. Regardless of the outcome, however, I thank you for all your efforts at helping me out with this.

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#14 2006-11-27 21:58:58

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Guys, using a tuner doesn't tell you very much unless you are confident that you are playing correctly. Because the pitch of a shakuhachi can fluctuate by more than a half step depending upon your technique. Even a great players pitch varies according to how meri or kari they play. It's deceptive to use a tuner in these circumstances. A better idea would be to get an advanced player to blow your flute into a tuner and tell you for example "this flute is A 445" and then try to get that pitch yourself because you know that's what the flute should be doing. It takes a long time for a player to produce the correct pitch. Sometimes when I am teaching beginners I use a 1.9 when they play 1.8 because they play so flat due to weak blowing. Ro is the note that usually ends up flattest.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#15 2006-11-27 22:00:07

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

I also have one of Monty's 1.8 flutes, if I play full kari it comes up to 'D', but that is full kari (for me at this time anyway) and though I don't play in full kari generally, or I have no keri head-room. 
But I just blew it looking at your issue and it feels like the more meri I blow, the more out of pitch those two notes become with the kan note being the higher.
Here is another thought, instead of altering the angle of the flute so much, alter the angle of the lips, drawing the lower behind the upper and vice-versa to alter the meri/kari.

Plus Ed's note on velocity, perhaps blow meri otsu harder to maintain its relationship with kan. But I am getting out of my understanding a bit here as I am still a novice.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#16 2006-11-28 10:38:07

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

Tairaku wrote:

Guys, using a tuner doesn't tell you very much unless you are confident that you are playing correctly. Because the pitch of a shakuhachi can fluctuate by more than a half step depending upon your technique.

Exactly. It takes an experienced player to tell whether or not a flute is in tune when played with a reasonable head position and embouchure. Ninety nine times out of a hundred the problem is the player, not the flute. It may be difficult to hear this over and over again, but problems like this are best solved with live lessons.

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#17 2006-11-29 00:07:13

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: I / Ro no Kan - what am I doing wrong?

For the record: Monty Levenson's flutes, even his student flutes, are generally very well in tune with themselves and with Western concert pitch.

I've never encountered one of his with obvious tuning problems.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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