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#1 2006-11-06 16:48:22

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Correct breathing.

When I took my first lesson, I was told that breathing is my weakest area by far. This is something I've been working on lately. The problems are that I have a too wide lip opening and I breath incorrectly. So far I've managed to improve my breathing a lot and my lip opening is much better as well. However, there is another problem I'm running into with trying to play very long notes.

If I try to just blow without a flute, I can do so for a fairly long time. When I try to play a note, however, it gets much trickier. Even though I technically have enough air, I soon start to feel like I'm suffocating. If I at that point just blow with all I got, I still have plenty of air left. As such, I get a similar feeling that appears if you take a deep breath but don't breath out. Eventually you start to suffocate even though you have plenty of air.

Is there something I'm doing wrong, or is this just a matter of doing it until I can breath out for longer period of time? Right now I have to stop well before running out of air.

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#2 2006-11-06 20:54:54

PSTL
Member
From: Jacksonville, FL USA
Registered: 2006-08-02
Posts: 67

Re: Correct breathing.

Amokrun,

I recommend that you work on training your diaphragm to help squeeze out all that air and maximize your lung capacity. It won't take long to get the hang of it, but it does require focus. There's a lot of help at the site below. Go three postings down to, "Learn how you can strengthen your diaphragm".

http://shakuhachiblog.com/

Phil

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#3 2006-11-06 21:05:00

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Correct breathing.

PSTL wrote:

I recommend that you work on training your diaphragm to help squeeze out all that air and maximize your lung capacity. It won't take long to get the hang of it, but it does require focus. There's a lot of help at the site below. Go three postings down to, "Learn how you can strengthen your diaphragm".

Thank you for the link. It seems to be a nice method, which I'll try soon. You think that it's a diaphragm issue then? Since I don't really know much about how all this works in theory, what exactly changes when your diaphragm gets stronger? Does it mean that you can push out more air and thus blow for longer without suffocating?

Another question that I was thinking of is, is there a big difference between the amount of air that a beginner can hold in compared to a professional, or is the difference more in how much of it you can use effectively? Somehow I find it hard to believe that you could expand your lung capacity by a really large amount and that the trick lies in using it all and blowing as little as possible.

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#4 2006-11-06 21:44:58

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Correct breathing.

amokrun wrote:

Another question that I was thinking of is, is there a big difference between the amount of air that a beginner can hold in compared to a professional, or is the difference more in how much of it you can use effectively? Somehow I find it hard to believe that you could expand your lung capacity by a really large amount and that the trick lies in using it all and blowing as little as possible.

Both capacity and control will develop gradually with much practice, like any other muscular excercise.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2006-11-06 22:00:10

PSTL
Member
From: Jacksonville, FL USA
Registered: 2006-08-02
Posts: 67

Re: Correct breathing.

Most people breath shallow. They use the upper portion of their lungs and don't exercise the diaphragm for peak lung performance. Using your diaphragm properly will allow you to breath deeply. You want to fill the lower lungs (it feels like you're breathing into your groin), and then control the exhale from the bottom of your lungs to the top (both of these effects are done with the diaphragm). With practice you will use your entire lung capacity to extend your tone and pitch on the Shakuhachi. You got to work the diaphragm or you will continue to feel like you're "suffocating".

The other goal is to maximize the breathe as it leaves the lips. It takes much practice. What you end up with is a combination of lung capacity management and breathe control. It's what I love most about playing the Shakuhachi. It's a breathing meditation everytime I pick up the flute.

If you have the resources, you might try taking a few voice lessons. Voice instructors usually start off by analyzing ones breathing.

Phil

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#6 2006-11-06 22:40:02

nSkky
Member
From: Crowheart, Wyoming
Registered: 2006-09-13
Posts: 22

Re: Correct breathing.

amokrun wrote:

Even though I technically have enough air, I soon start to feel like I'm suffocating.

Sounds like a reflex issue rather than musculature. Google 'apnea training' and 'free diving'.

Pearl divers have to train past the relex in order to do their job.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ama_divers


Nick


Dreams construct the world. --Heyoka

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#7 2006-12-30 06:48:21

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Correct breathing.

amokrun wrote:

If I try to just blow without a flute, I can do so for a fairly long time. When I try to play a note, however, it gets much trickier. Even though I technically have enough air, I soon start to feel like I'm suffocating.

Well, if you just inhaled a big breath and held it without letting it out you'll eventually feel like you're suffocating too. It's not how much air you have in your lungs, it's how much stale air. So, the question becomes why are you not able to complete a phrase before needing to take in more fresh air. It could be that the musical piece is too difficult for you. I don't know Japanese traditional music, but with almost any wind instrument in any culture some pieces of music will have phrases that will test the limits of the musician.

Another reason could be that you're not relaxed enough. Being tense your body will use a lot more air than if you are relaxed. I'd suggest to try standing and pacing some while improvising and see what happens. It should be almost impossible to tense up too much with the bit of added movement and not being stressed to play things you're already uptight with not being able to play. If your problem was already with improvised music, just try going for shorter phrases. A lot of what sounds like players having extremely large lung capacity is that they've learned to take short breaths without breaking the phrase much. That will come with time. 

The diaphragmatic breathing idea is commonly a stumbling block too, and misunderstood a lot. All breathing is going to use your diaphragm, it's how it's used that's important. Pretend you're in a swimming pool and your about to go underwater so you take a big breath. Chances are your chest just heaved and you locked in the air. Both of those are exactly what you should *not* be doing. No heaving of the chest, although it will expand, and no locking in the air. Diaphragmatic breathing is really kind of easy, it's more a thing of not trying too hard than anything else. Again, it's easier improvising because you can allow as much time as you want between phrases.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#8 2006-12-30 11:29:41

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Correct breathing.

This is excellent advice. The greatest difficulty with so-called diaphragmatic breathing is in making it habitual, and un-learning the chest-heaving business. It requires a degree of practice and mindfulness to get there.

It IS easy--you just let your stomach fall away, pulling the diaphragm downward and loading the lungs with air. The hard part is just repeatedly letting it happen and not introducing the well-learned pattern of 'inflating' the lungs.

eB

Last edited by edosan (2006-12-30 11:30:16)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#9 2006-12-31 16:45:30

philthefluter
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: 2006-06-02
Posts: 190
Website

Re: Correct breathing.

I haven't read all the advice given by others but here's my twopense worth. If you feel 'out of breath' and gasping for air, you may be hyperventilating (ie you have too much air not too little).  As others said, spend more time doing exercises away from the shakuhachi-driving in the car, doing the dishes, etc.

Try and recreate the same blowing against your hand. Make the air colder. Then try with the shakuhchi not yet touching your chin. Continue to blow the same way while placing the shakuhachi on the chin. Don't worry if there is any tone or not. Enjoy the muraiki!

The difference in terms of angle of the airstream creating a tone and just wind sounds is very small-a couple of degrees.  Persist with no tone but keeping a fast airstream as if there were no instrument against your chin. It's a great Zen experience-all this blowing and no notes.  A good sound will appear when you least expect.

I have found that flute pupils often have the ability to blow and breath correctly but create a wide aperture when the instrument is placed on the chin. Use a mirror and keep the same embouchure with blowing with and without the shakuhachi. Gambatte.


"The bamboo and Zen are One!" Kurosawa Kinko
http://www.shakuhachizen.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shakuhachizen

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#10 2007-01-01 04:10:10

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Correct breathing.

philthefluter wrote:

As others said, spend more time doing exercises away from the shakuhachi-driving in the car, doing the dishes, etc.

Your advice is good. But, please don't practice breathing excercises in the car. Most of them will cause light-headedness and it's probably not a good idea.

I know it has nothing to do with this thread but I just got my first Japanese shakuhachi working, and it's dynamite. I'm finding it difficult to put down. It's a world nicer to play than the straight, non-root, shakuhachi-like American instruments I learned on (if you call learning to blow "learned", I'm cluesless about the music and note names). It had a huge crack all the way down the top joint that was completely seperated by about 1/16 inch. I superglued it using hose clamps. I knew about superglue for cracks, but the idea to use hose clamps I got here, and then I used Perry Yung's tutorial that I found here to bind it. Isn't the internet great!?


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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