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#1 2007-02-28 20:25:55

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Hello All,

Thanks for the warm greetings I recieved in my first post yesterday.  I have a couple of questions to shoot out to those who know better than I do where to begin.  I have no background at all in wind instruments, though I played drums for a number of years.  I have been told that the big book by Masayuki Koga, Shakuhachi: the Japanese Bamboo Flute is a good place to begin for someone with no background.  The book is pretty expensive, so I was wondering what people on the forum would suggest for someone who wants to learn by themselves (till I can find a teacher).  I like the more meditative kinko stuff, though I must admit I am very much new to all this.   Where to begin, book wise?  Any suggestions, or is the Koga book worth getting?

My other question is about hand positioning.  I have been told that the right hand goes down at the bottom of the shakuhachi, and the left hand goes on top.  I did not know this when I started so I did what felt natural and comfortable for me.  And for me the most comfortable way to play by far is right hand up top, and left at the bottom.  Is this a bad habit?  should I force myself to change while I am still new and a beginner, or is the hand position I mentioned okay.  thx.

Matt


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#2 2007-02-28 21:36:17

gmiller
Member
From: Ozello Trail, Fla
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 109

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Hey Matt.... welcome

regarding hand position: I play right hand up, naturally. In Japan many professionals also train for right hand up as most are right-handed and right-hand up offers better control over the top three finger holes. So, if your inclination is to play right-hand up, and you are right-handed, consider yourself fortunate.

right-on
George

Last edited by gmiller (2007-02-28 21:37:05)

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#3 2007-02-28 22:25:47

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Hi Matt,

Welcome to the forum.  I'd say to play the way that feels most comfortable for you.  Yokoyama Katsuya is one of those professional players who plays right hand up so you are in good company.  I'm not personally familiar with the Koga book so can't advise on that but Chris Blasdel also has a good introductory book for shakuhachi (combined with a history of the instrument) called The Shakuhachi: A Manual for Learning (Kinko), which comes with a booklet of graduated exercise pieces.

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#4 2007-02-28 23:16:47

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Lorka wrote:

My other question is about hand positioning.  I have been told that the right hand goes down at the bottom of the shakuhachi, and the left hand goes on top.  I did not know this when I started so I did what felt natural and comfortable for me.  And for me the most comfortable way to play by far is right hand up top, and left at the bottom.  Is this a bad habit?  should I force myself to change while I am still new and a beginner, or is the hand position I mentioned okay.  thx.

I'd be inclined to say it doesn't matter. However, be aware that many of the longer shakuhachi have the holes placed off-center to make it easier to reach the finger holes. If in the future you want to purchase one of those flutes, you'll find that most are made for the typical left-over-right hold and you'll be forced to change then, have the holes in the flute moved, or commision the maker to make a left-handed flute specifically for you. As a very new beginner forcing a change should be relatively easy, you've got a lot of bigger hurdles ahead of you. For those reasons, I'd suggest making the change now.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#5 2007-02-28 23:56:39

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Regarding the Koga book:

I think it's a decent way to start, and better than some, and it's really no more expensive than any other, considering the amount of material that's in it. Just start at the beginning and be judicious about learning each section well (not perfectly, but so you have some facility with it) before moving on to the next, especially the exercises on reading basic Kinko notation--you should get those so that they are automatic. It's also a good idea to jump back to earlier material from time to time--surprising what you've missed the first time or two around.

His recording is well coordinated with the written material, and the idea is to teach you to read the basic Kinko notation first, with a short introduction to rhythm, then move on to playing some Japanese folk songs and a few original exercises by Koga. All are useful, presented in gradual degree of difficulty, and some are quite beautiful. Listen carefully to how Koga plays them. Listen, listen, listen, and try to emulate what he's doing.

I encourage you to spend some serious time on that material, even though you are drawn to the 'meditative' pieces, because you won't have much luck playing the latter until you can develop the basic techniques required to get around on the former, besides, anything can be meditative if you pay attention to it.

I think it's also worth taking the time to just listen repeatedly to the honkyoku; get some decent recordings--even though those pieces are often very attractive to you early on, it usually (always...) takes some time to digest them and really hear what's going on there before trying to play them.

The pieces Koga has picked for the book will serve you very well down the line, I guarantee you.

I also like Chris Blasdel's book, but I think Koga's book may be laid out a bit better for a rank beginner. Chris's book also has a great selection of pieces, and the history section alone is worth the price.

eB

Last edited by edosan (2007-03-01 00:02:20)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2007-03-02 07:59:38

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Hi Matt,
With regard to right over left or left over right, I think it's quite correct to play the way that feels most natural to you.  I play in a group of fifty players, of which a small number are right over left players.  A few of those have reached the shihan level within the kinko lineage which means they have managed to deal with the same challenges that their left over right collegues were equally presented. 
As for the problems of hole placement and longer shakuhachi, it's probably a situation that is far more a reality in the west than it is here in Japan.  Not many players play intruments much over a 2.0, though it seems that western players tend to gravitate to longer intruments for some reason.  At any rate, if you choose to want a longer instrument, I would suggest that there are now several makers in N. Am who are well qualified to supply you with an instrument that is not only playable, but suited to your needs and at a price that is possibly something you can deal with if you are so inclined.
As an added suggestion, try to find a teacher that you can touch bases with even occasionally.  It will help you in not re-inventing the wheel too often.  That being said, there are still insites that await afresh set of senses.
All the best with your journey.
Jeff


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#7 2007-03-02 14:33:12

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Sorry to reply to my own post.  I'm not sure what the ettiquette for that is.  I have read over the responses and really appreciate the time people have taken, it is nice to be able to talk with others on this forum and get the input of shakuhachi officianados. 

I decided to bite the bulllet, eat the cost, and get the Koga book.  The 165 page one.  I am sure it is a good investment and will help me along the Shakuhachi path. 

I was a little worried about one of the posts that suggested that I need to play left hand up, right hand down, with the bigger shakuhachi.  It is a little ways off yet, but I want to play a larger shakuhachi at some point (plus the 1.8 of course), as I am attracted to the deeper, bassier notes of the larger flutes. 

I have tried playing "normal" but it still feels unnatural, and my finger dexterity and coordination is not nearly as good.  I will keep at it, but what feels right for me is right hand up, and left at the bottom.  I will try to be able to do both though, which might be a noteworthy exercise.  Thanks again for the info though.  It was much appreciated.

As a silly and unrelated side note I have been practicing my shakuhachi Yuu in the bathtub (sometimes with my ears under the water).  The acoustics in the room make the notes echo in and brings the shakuhachi to life in a kind of alien, etherial way.  It makes for interesting practice.  And no, don't worry, I would never in a million years dream of bringing a real bamboo shakuhachi into the bathtub (once I get one that is).   

In montreal we have about 30 cm of snow today, it is a real beast of a storm out there, and I went on the balcony in the snow and played.  As I was playing I could see my own breath escaping from the note holes and drifting off with the storm.  The notes seemed to blend into the surrounding space.   It was a pleasurable experience playing in the snow and the voice of the shakuhachi seemed to merge well with the snowy tempest outside.  Just thought I'd share the experience.  The sound of flute notes drifting with the snow must of confused the neighbours.  Oh well. 

Happy Practice all,

Matthew


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#8 2007-03-02 15:52:28

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Jeff Cairns wrote:

Hi Matt,
With regard to right over left or left over right, I think it's quite correct to play the way that feels most natural to you.

I really dislike disagreeing on this matter because I'm fully aware that right over left or left over right is more of a cultural thing rather than a degree of correctness (although there is still a can of worms I'll open later in this post). For most Middle-eastern ney-type instruments, the majority of players play right over left as that's traditionally how they are played. Unfortunately, since I learned silver concert flute left over right  and never switched when I started exploring keyless instruments, I'm stuck with having ney either special made or putting up with having the thumb hole off center to the "wrong" side for me. While it is true that there are many makers who are capable of commissioning instruments at reasonable prices for both ney and traditionallly left over right instruments like shakuhachi, I can say from the  experience of living in both worlds, it's really nice to be able to purchase or even just  pick up someone elses instrument to give it a try without the frustration of having the holes placed wrong for me. Also note that the thumbhole slightly off-center to the wrong side of a ney is much less of a hinderence than the holes being off-center to the wrong side on a shakuhachi. Trying to play a right-handed shakuhachi left-handed will be inconvenient to the point of being impractical.

As far as arguments to support switching now rather than later to playing left over right, there are at least two I can think of. First, concert flutes, saxophones, clarinets, and oboes are almost all extremely impractical to  play left-handed and I see very little demand for left-handed instruments of these types. Rather than think of how many brilliant left-handed musicians there'd be if they weren't discouraged because of this cultural standard, I'm more   inclined to think that it's pretty darn easy to start the learning process left over right even if the "natural" tendency of the beginner is right over left. Another argument would be that it's a lot easier to switch now than it will be after you're an accomplished player with an extensive repertoire. I don't know any pieces at all and just improvise, but find that I've come up with enough improvised patterns that I would find it very challenging to switch to right over left. So, it seems to me that if you want to switch to left over right, the time to do it is now, before you learn much.

I mentioned about opening a can of worms earlier, and now it's time. Scientifically, your right arm is controlled by the left side of your brain and your left arm is controlled by the right side of your brain. The left and right side of your brain are also responsible for different concious functions like intuitiveness and logic. It could be that associating high notes with one hand and low notes with the other (and keep in mind that thumb hole) can change how your music will sound and how the playing will affect you. Since I'm uncertain about the scientific validity of all this, metaphysically, remember that there are no coincidences. Switching to left over right may change what course your life takes dramatically and may change your perception of reality to an unknown extent. Whether that change is better, worse, or just different is something I can't even guess at, but I kind of think your decision boils down to a lot more than whether it will be easier to play longer instruments.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#9 2007-03-02 16:31:26

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Lorka wrote:

I was a little worried about one of the posts that suggested that I need to play left hand up, right hand down, with the bigger shakuhachi.  It is a little ways off yet, but I want to play a larger shakuhachi at some point (plus the 1.8 of course), as I am attracted to the deeper, bassier notes of the larger flutes.

I think it's fine that you responded on your own thread. I'm pretty sure the moderators don't care all that much as long as there is no fighting and factual mis-information is kept to a minimum.

As far as the attraction to deeper bass notes, I'm a little surprised that Jeff says that's more of a western thing because in Alcven's pictures (the link was posted recently in the miscellaneous thread) of the Japan trip there are plenty of huge instruments.

Personally, I find larger instruments over-rated, and that my ear adjusts quickly to the range of the instrument. Ie.,  on a higher pitched instrument, two octaves down from the top sounds like a very low note, and after playing it for a while, on a lower pitched instrument two octaves down sounds like two octaves down, just as low as on the higher pitched instrument.

Of course, I know I may have went a little overboard in my previous post as far as how dramatic the life changing effects are, but in the same manner listening to different frequencies will effect you in different ways.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#10 2007-03-02 20:51:30

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Lorka wrote:

I was a little worried about one of the posts that suggested that I need to play left hand up, right hand down, with the bigger shakuhachi.  It is a little ways off yet, but I want to play a larger shakuhachi at some point (plus the 1.8 of course), as I am attracted to the deeper, bassier notes of the larger flutes.

When the time comes for a long one, get Perry Yung to make it for you. He'll put the holes wherever you like.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#11 2007-03-05 02:18:56

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

radi0gnome wrote:

As far as the attraction to deeper bass notes, I'm a little surprised that Jeff says that's more of a western thing because in Alcven's pictures (the link was posted recently in the miscellaneous thread) of the Japan trip there are plenty of huge instruments.

Of course, there are Japanese who play longer flutes, and Al seeks out the people who share his enthusiasm for them. Still, these players constitute only a small subset of modern Japanese shakuhachi players.


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#12 2007-03-05 10:21:49

Sean
Member
From: Montreal.Qc.
Registered: 2006-10-12
Posts: 28

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Sorry to jump into this thread but I noticed that Lorka, you mentioned a Montreal snowstorm! I am from montreal as well!If you want , I would be more than happy to help you out with some beginner hurdles face to face. It's so rare to find other shakuhachi players from this area!

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#13 2007-03-05 16:47:06

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Hey Sean,

That would be great.  I would love to get together, though I must warn you, I am quite the beginner still.  Let me know if would be okay to email you and hopefully we could hang out.  Any shakuhachi advice would be very much welcome, and it would be great to have a real inperson dialogue with someone else that shares an interest in the Shakuhachi.  Feel free to email me, at matthewgwgarsia@hotmail.com, or let me know if its okay to email you (I always like to ask first). 

Matt


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#14 2007-03-05 17:05:32

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Jeff Cairns wrote:

As for the problems of hole placement and longer shakuhachi, it's probably a situation that is far more a reality in the west than it is here in Japan.  Not many players play intruments much over a 2.0, though it seems that western players tend to gravitate to longer intruments for some reason.

Im a bit surprised by this. As far as Japanese players are concerned, I have only been exposed to dokyoku players and chokan seem to be the preferred instruments. On any dokyoku cd I have, few songs are played on 1.8. They are a minority though.

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#15 2007-03-06 00:01:00

Sean
Member
From: Montreal.Qc.
Registered: 2006-10-12
Posts: 28

Re: Good Beginner Notation and Hand Positioning

Hi Matt!

Feel free to e-mail me anytime at: shaman141@hotmail.com

Last edited by Sean (2007-03-06 00:01:58)

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