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Has anyone tried to play ragas on the shakuhachi? I'm really just learning the basics of the raga, but think it could be well adapted to the shakuhachi. I really don't know what I'm talking about right now though since I just started this investigation, but it should be fun.
If anyone has any knowledge on this topic and could help me out I'd be grateful. Thanks.
Chris
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I think ragas would be kind of tough with just 5 holes. Indian scales are full of microtones and are tough enough with the 6 hole bansuri flutes. Maybe a 7 hole shakuhachi would work OK, or maybe a normal shakuhachi in the hands of a master. The only reason I feel somewhat qualified to tackle this question is because I'm familiar with some Turkish scales on ney, they have lots of microtones too, and I can't get them to transfer to shakuhachi. Even the scales that are almost equivalent to some western modes are tough on shakuhachi.
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Well I think it can be pulled off. I've been practicing the ten main raga scales. The fingerings are a little awkward, but doable for sure.
Oh by the way, anyone interested in Indian music should check this forum out: http://forum.indiansheetmusic.com
Not many people are on it, so it would be nice to get it going a bit more.
Last edited by Bogert (2007-03-11 05:24:03)
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On second thought, I wasn't answering your question and only provided discouragement. I didn't mean to do that. By all means, explore it. It would be interesting to hear from others who have went the same path. Isn't there an Indian scale that is close to the Western diatonic scale? I can't even get a decent diatonic scale on shakuhachi. Close, but after stumbling through it a few times I decided that although it's possible, the instrument wasn't designed for it. One of the most impressive things I've seen along those lines was a Mongolian throat singing teacher play a few stanzas of a Mozart sonata on a 6 hole simple flute virtuosically. I guess when you get good at an instrument almost anything is possible.
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radi0gnome wrote:
I think ragas would be kind of tough with just 5 holes.
Tim Hoffman would differ with you. Check out these links:
http://www.shakuhachi.com/G-IJMEA.html
http://www.shakuhachi.com/H-Yamaguchi-Hoffman.html
http://www.bigappleshak.com/bas/bio-hoffman.shtml
eB
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There are some ragas like bhupali that are pentatonic and are easy on shakuhachi. Some of the other scales are similiar to the Japanese insempo-e.g. Re-chimeri-rimeri-ha-ro-tsumeri-remeri-re is the bhairav scale with 4 sets or semitone intervals.
Monty sells some good introduction guides to raga. There is also the excellent Raga Guide with 4CDs from Nimbus.
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The link to the indian forum did not work.
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Thanks, those are great links, now I'm certain this is wroth learning.
The Indian forum link works, just try it again. Sometimes it says Internal sever error or something to that effect, not sure why.
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edosan wrote:
radi0gnome wrote:
I think ragas would be kind of tough with just 5 holes.
Tim Hoffman would differ with you. Check out these links...
About the samples on the first link, the first one sounded like one of the pentatonic Indian scales someone else mentioned. The other two sounded like they were extremely diificult. Were these with a 5 hole flute? Either way Tim Hoffman is obviously a very accomplished player, and I find the lengths that he went to integrate shakuhachi with Indian impressive too with the formal schooling. Yep, shakuhachi can play Indian classical music, now back to practicing the Mozart sonata on the shakuhachi Just kidding, I'll leave that to someone else to accomplish.
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One thing non-traditional music does well for shakuhachi playing is getting the player used to all sorts of fingerings that are not used very often in classical shakuhachi music. For instance the first time I even ran into re meri was in Nagara no Haru, before that I had never used it (as far as I can remember at the moment). With most any western piece that note is used regularly. Also tsu no chu-meri, although used more often, is a regular sight in more western music. Not only that but some of the note combinations take a bit of getting used to.
Indian music is the same way. Lots of rare notes and note combinations rarely used within classical shakuhachi playing.
In my very humble opinion, with no formal music training besides the shakuhachi, I think branching out can only help advance a shakuhachi player. Learning difficult passages can only better a players control of pitch and fluidity. It also allows for the player to integrate techniques from different musical traditions to see what works.
In my mind no music is inherently harder to play on the shakuhachi than any other, some just takes more getting used to. Honkyoku integrates all sorts of difficult techniques and fingerings that just take lots of practice, same as any classical western music, but of course different at the same time : )
Well that is my thoughts. I e-mailed Mr. Tim Hoffman to see if he can give me any help with the raga playing. I will share any hints he gives me for those interested. It seems he wrote a book on the topic. I'll have to check that out too.
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Bogert wrote:
It seems he wrote a book on the topic.
I think I'll let myself get a little bit defensive here even though I whole-heartedly agree with what's been said (that last post was particularly well written). When I said playing ragas would probably be difficult, I mentioned that master players might be able to handle it or maybe it could be done with a 6 hole flute. So, you guys point out someone that accomplished the task. I'm sorry, like I said I feel bad about the discouraging remarks. However, when I mentioned circular breathing almost immediately when I joined the forum a few months ago, most of the responses were that it was too difficult on shakuhachi, yet that's something I can do, and I'm not a particularly good player. Go figure.
A little more on topic, about 5 years ago I bought a plastic Irish flute with a shakuhachi head joint. It really helped out my embouchure for shakuhachi trying to play music I was familiar with on it, but I never succeeded doing it. I'm pretty sure it can be done, and if I did succeed it certainly would have impressed my friends. Tim Hoffman's work suggests that the using shakuhachi for other music can go far past being a novelty or just to improve technique. It would be kind of cool to see a Japanese instrument adopted into classical Indian music the same way some Western instruments have, like violin.
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radi0gnome,
Oh sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. No worries about "discouraging remarks", because it is difficult. You were just saying it like it is : ) It just takes lots of work. If everything was easy it would get boring pretty fast. I guess I missed the circular breathing discussion. I have heard people do that with the shakuhachi. That's a pretty good accomplishment, even if it comes naturally for you. You could certainly develop an unique style with that addition.
Oh, and like it said if I get any hints for raga on the shakuhachi I'll let you'll know.
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i have dabbled a bit in playing raga on shakuhachi. Mostly through my friends and colleagues each summer at the Lark Music Camp. I think shakuhachi is very well fit for this music but i do not have the time to dedicate to learning the intense details and intricacies of this amazing musical tradition. For those who are curious, i only use a 5 hole flute.
Someone stated they cant play a diatonic scale with a 5 hole shakuhachi. Keep practicing! It is not that difficult if you put the dedication to it. Shakuahchi is capable of playing all 12 notes of the western octave and any microtone found in other musical forms. Just a matter of learning to hear and then finding the geography of the shakuhachi to make it work.
Tim Hoffman seems to be spending a lifetime devoted to shakuhachi and raga and making very beautiful music in the process.
phil
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Tim says the raga scales are easier to play than the insempo scale we use most of the time for traditional music.
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Bogert wrote:
radi0gnome,
Oh sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. No worries about "discouraging remarks", because it is difficult. You were just saying it like it is : ) It just takes lots of work. If everything was easy it would get boring pretty fast. I guess I missed the circular breathing discussion. I have heard people do that with the shakuhachi.
No problem, I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I didn't think I had anything additional to add to the topic. I'm curious, what context did you hear circular breathing used in shakuhachi? When I previously brought up the subject I was asking if it was used in traditional music. From the responses I assumed it wasn't.
Bogert wrote:
That's a pretty good accomplishment, even if it comes naturally for you.
Yes, it came rather naturally on shakuhachi, but that's only because I learned it on other instruments first. I struggled with it on Balinese suling first, got it going nice and easy on didjeridu after about a year or so, then going back to suling it was easy, although I was no longer involved with the amatuer gamelan orchestra at that point. I didn't have a whole lot of success with circular breathing on transverse flute after that, but a little. However when I picked up the shakuhachi after not having played it in a long time, I found it was relatively easy to circular breath on it. A few months of practicing shakuhachi with circular breathing and I'm finding it kind of easy on transverse flute now too.
I'm looking forward to hearing what you find about the ragas.
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philipgelb wrote:
Someone stated they cant play a diatonic scale with a 5 hole shakuhachi. Keep practicing! It is not that difficult if you put the dedication to it. Shakuahchi is capable of playing all 12 notes of the western octave and any microtone found in other musical forms. Just a matter of learning to hear and then finding the geography of the shakuhachi to make it work.
Hi Phil, that was me that mentioned about the diatonic scale on shakuhachi. I could keep practicing it, but I didn't really like the direction it was leading. After the diatonic scale, the next step was obviously western melodies, and I thought my practice time would be better spent elsewhere because the sound I'm going for isn't playing top 40 on shakuhachi. As far as getting all 12 notes on the shakuhachi (and all the microtones in between), I realize it's true, but doesn't the constant mention of it perpetuate a bit of a misconception? As it is, although it's possible to play early Western classical music on a keyless transverse flute, the reason they started adding keys was to make it easier to play the newer, more chromatic music the composers were coming up with. So even though with enough dedication you can play the music with shakuhachi, it's not what shakuhachi is good at, and that would be sliding through the chromatic scale.
In general, different instruments evolved or are favored to meet the needs of the different music. A silver flute for newer classical music, baroque flute for baroque music (one of Robert Dick's arguments for saying all silver flutists should learn circular breathing is that longer baroque passages were written for barque flutes that required less wind), Irish flute with the larger finger holes for Irish music, and so on. It's not that you can't cross with good results, examples are Galway's Japanese album, Joannie Madden playing Irish music primarily on silver flute (I find this amazing because I quit silver flute and learned Irish flute for Irish music because I thought the keys were getting in the way), and a number of people who use silver flute for Indian music, some who play bansuri flute too so I take it that they know what they are doing. Maybe shakuhachi works with East-Indian music because it's so easy to slide to the microtones.
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Bogert wrote:
Well that is my thoughts. I e-mailed Mr. Tim Hoffman to see if he can give me any help with the raga playing. I will share any hints he gives me for those interested. It seems he wrote a book on the topic. I'll have to check that out too.
Alas, the book he wrote is in Japanese.
eB
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wow!! i almost missed this discussion on the Ragas and Shakuhachi.....
Look out for John Kaizan Neptune's CD titled " Steps in Time"
He has played different Ragas on his Shakuhachi by collaborating with a couple of Indian Classical Musicians....
The accompaniments include: Violin, Mridangam- -both playing classical Carnatic Music and Bass, Guitar for accompaniments......the songs are played great on the shakuhachi....especially the tracks Saraswati, MAking the waves and the title track Steps in Time.....
Try to get hold of the CD...it is on Amazon...or at Neptunes Website.......
Best of luck
Shashank
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oops i forgot to mention...about the track Bamboogie....Neptune's shakuhachi is accopanied by Ragas in Vocals.....!!
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Sweet thanks. I have seen that cd, but didn't know it had that on it.
"Alas, the book he wrote is in Japanese.
eB"
Yeah, although my Japanese is still rather weak I will get it (whenever I have some money that is). I'm moving to Japan in about a month or so : )
Chris
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If anyone on here is interested in classical Hindustani, Carnatic or Sikh music, check out that forum mentioned above: http://forum.indiansheetmusic.com/
That forum really needs a jump start. I've been trying to get it moving, but only a few people post things : (
I've just been doing my own research and posting on there with my findings. Anyone else that knows about that music or wants to learn should start posting. Then when other people that are learning look around they can find helpful information.
I'm not affiliated with the forum, just found it while looking around and am trying to get it going so I can learn too, while second to my learning classical shakuhachi music, I'd like to get grounded in the basics of that music. That's all.
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