Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

costademaria · 2007-03-17 12:38:00

hi, there seems in me to arise some questions about the fine tuning and the playability of the shakuhachi. i would be helped a lot if i receive different oppinions for any of them or for all. anybody please welkome to tell sth. in fact these are the things that make me doubt so much and the biggest reason is that there is no possibility for me to compare between realy worth instruments. these are not questions for the pitch,lets asume that its ok, so here they are:

1.the shakuhachi that i like most from that i have made are which when opening the holes one after another i get a feeling of the head rotating. technicaly i think its like changing the phase of the sound. also it like has some center between 2 and 3 hole. i even learned to make the center go up and down the holes,its valid also for the second register. in a way its like mery or kari but the pitch stays the same. in fact i like the effect so that i throw as a trash a shakuhachi which can not produce this effect well enough. in other words when i open a hole like the world rotates 90 degrees clockwise and so on with the next hole and it kind of like penetrates my brain/in the good way/

2. also i like to be tuned so when i open whichever hole to hear popping sound and if echo inside the shakuhachi - better, but clear and mellow and not reedy

3.the other thing i do is to make the utaguchi and the bore so that if i blow normally to go up and down all the notes without changing at all the lip and shack position, i mean it to be a kind of easy for me to play

4. another question is that i like the sound to be so that when blowing normaly to be sweet but almost at the point of becoming reedy. my idea is that i can produce both from the same instrument with easyness

5. when i put polymerising tung oil inside and outside to make strong shack it happens that i loose some of the warmth and gain some reedy-ness,so some little touch to the bore and where exactly to correct this? up till now i correct the utaguchi and even today i started a shack which i think of making it sweeter almost without any vibrations supposing that they will occure when i laquer the bore. or should i sand a bit the laquier to return some eartness to the shakuhachi? but i think here this happens not because of the gaine speed of the sound from better reflective surface, i suppose it happens from the hardening of the bamboo walls inside and outside? why i think this? cause once i have done a shakuhachi from inox. then i used it burn the nodes and accidently put it in water and it quenched/steel/, so it played differently. then i annealed it/ soft metal/ it again played the same. but the bamboo burns so i can not anneal it ofcourse...

i have more quiestions but at the moment i forgot them all. thanks for reading and thanks if you give oppinions cause i didnt find this info else where and am almost on my own here in spain. thanks Bill Gates for the internet...

costademaria · 2007-03-17 12:40:28

PS. i mean with all this questions---Am i in the right direction or am going elsewhere...

Mujitsu · 2007-03-17 13:19:12

costademaria wrote:
PS. i mean with all this questions---Am i in the right direction or am going elsewhere...

Boyan,

I think self discovery is very important in developing shakuhachi making skills. To compliment this, I would also suggest familiarizing yourself with as many shakuhachi examples as you can find. Jinashi, jiari, big, small, thin, wide, different approaches of schools, etc. This helps one realize the many possibilities of this instrument. It is also very helpful to find shakuhachi with qualities that you would like to aspire to. This approach has helped me think outside my own head and gain an awareness and motivation I would not have experienced otherwise.

We're all on our own road here, but this is the direction I would face.

Good luck!

Ken

philthefluter · 2007-03-17 14:42:59

I am experimenting with different lacquer finishes to the inside of the shakuhachi at the moment. I think some are best with only one coat-I like the windy, soft timbre. Others seem to need a glossier finish and the extra resonance that comes with it. See which type of honkyoku or music genres suit each shakuhachi and compare finishes and bore types...

costademaria · 2007-03-26 14:26:07

hi,i am thankfull for the replies but a bit disappointed/from the no replies/. in fact i know very well what i like and what i dont and why. i started this thread with the intention for all of us the newbies here to understand well some basic principles in shakuhachi making which can not be told to us from the maker who is living next door. i thought this will help also the people to choose well when buying a shack but it seems the japanese mistery again prevails. in fact i was so dissaponted that i took to play my Native American FLute made by Woodsounds. No tradition there, no secrets. All the makers nice people, even for 10$ or free they give you the exact measurements of all their flutes. the most expensive flute around 500$/ like the one i have and believe me its worth every cent/. and i said again to my girlfriend that the indians were the most wise and realy zen people on earth inventing so simple instrument that any body can play and no need for understanding complicated things. just listening to the heart and blowing a song to the silence
and she said" the japanese always like to give some importance and secrecy of all they make-reiki,katana...untill sb discovers its not so complicated as they want to seem, writes a book and ...
so thanks again navaching for the effort
thanks to Ken, i wil follow your advice

gmiller · 2007-03-26 15:03:51

Sounds to me like you want shakuhachi knowledge and "know-how" given to you in a nice neat package that can be opened and presto you're making perfect shakuhachi (if there is such a thing). The shakuhachi is a very different animal from the NAF. If it's shakuhachi you want be prepared to spend considerable time developing even a basic skill set. If you're sincere invest some money in some or all of the available books on the subject and take the time to read them. If you are really driven, pack it in, leave Spain and get to Japan as soon as possible, find a master who will apprentice you and devote the next years learning directly from those mysterious craftsmen..... This is after all how all genuine skills are transmitted.....

Mujitsu · 2007-03-26 16:06:39

costademaria wrote:
in fact i was so dissaponted that i took to play my Native American FLute made by Woodsounds. No tradition there, no secrets. All the makers nice people, even for 10$ or free they give you the exact measurements of all their flutes.

Boyan,

There are many shakuhachi plans with complete measurements available for free. The technical information is out there for the taking. From there, I think much of shakuhachi making is about feel, which develops and changes with experience. Its deceptive simplicity makes it complicated and not easily transferred through a forum. That's just the way it is with shakuhachi.

I think it takes years of 'correct' experience to develop as a shakuhachi maker or player. By 'correct' I mean starting with a good foundation, taking lessons with a qualified teacher, connecting with outstanding players and makers, respecting the instrument and its history and maintaining humility. With this in mind, it's difficult to know how to respond to your questions and complaints.

Ken

costademaria · 2007-03-26 17:09:58

yes,may be i am in a hurry. will keep silence.

Yungflutes · 2007-03-27 10:21:17

Hi, learning how to make shakuhachi is an extremely mysterious thing, not just because it is Japanese, but because it is like everything that comes from a different culture. Until you can put yourself in the shoes of a Japanese man born in Japan, you can not understand all that is involved.

gmiller wrote:
If it's shakuhachi you want be prepared to spend considerable time developing even a basic skill set. If you're sincere invest some money in some or all of the available books on the subject and take the time to read them.

This is a great way to start. I own nearly every thing written about the shakuhachi in English, and some in Japanese. Also know that the shakuhachi is an oral tradition. There were many invaluable things I learned by watching how my teachers' lips moved. This experience deeply affects the way I make shakuhachi.

gmiller wrote:
If you are really driven, pack it in, leave Spain and get to Japan as soon as possible, find a master who will apprentice you and devote the next years learning directly from those mysterious craftsmen..... This is after all how all genuine skills are transmitted.....

Yes, this is what I had to do and highly recommend it to everyone. It will offer a glimpse into the culture that gave birth to this instrument and it's music. If you want to be a shakuhachi maker and sell flutes, you should try to understand the culture that your flutes will ultimately represent.

mujitsu wrote:
I think it takes years of 'correct' experience to develop as a shakuhachi maker or player. By 'correct' I mean starting with a good foundation, taking lessons with a qualified teacher, connecting with outstanding players and makers, respecting the instrument and its history and maintaining humility. With this in mind, it's difficult to know how to respond to your questions and complaints.

Very well said Ken. I am constantly reminded of how little I know. I had a lesson with Riley Lee a few weeks ago and I was expecting to be humbled. He didn't let me down! Riley once said he was visiting with Gyoksui Senior and Gyoksui San said something like, "I don't know how my best flutes were made". I think if you read the biographies of great artists, you will come across this sentiment often. So even if you had a great shakuhachi maker living next door, he/she may not be able to tell you how to make a great shakuhachi!

Enjoy the mystery,
Perry

Last edited by Yungflutes (2007-03-27 10:26:04)

Karmajampa · 2007-03-27 16:49:10

"I don't know how my best flutes were made"......reminds me of that album of John Kaizun Neptune, "Words Can't Go There".

§

Tairaku 太楽 · 2007-03-27 19:20:59

From what I've seen the personalities of the makers come out in the flutes so you are getting the product of their life experience shaped in bamboo. You can't imitate that.

radi0gnome · 2007-03-27 20:24:32

I liked a lot of the responses that eventually were generated in this discussion, and I think Costa was a little bit hasty to complain about not getting any answers to his set of questions that he opened this discussion with, but some of these questions don't seem too hard to answer. I'm going to give it a shot, keep in mind that I haven't made a shakuhachi yet, just repaired a couple and carved a mouthpiece on a 3 1/2 foot piece of bamboo.

costademaria wrote:
1.the shakuhachi that i like most from that i have made are which when opening the holes one after another i get a feeling of the head rotating. technicaly i think its like changing the phase of the sound. also it like has some center between 2 and 3 hole. i even learned to make the center go up and down the holes,its valid also for the second register. in a way its like mery or kari but the pitch stays the same. in fact i like the effect so that i throw as a trash a shakuhachi which can not produce this effect well enough. in other words when i open a hole like the world rotates 90 degrees clockwise and so on with the next hole and it kind of like penetrates my brain/in the good way/

I'm not sure if it's a language problem or what, but I don't understand this question. Feeling of the head rotating? Changing phase of the sound? A center between the 2 and 3 hole? Are you talking about something like a sweet spot on the shakuhachi? Even with that terminology, only experienced players would have a clue what it meant. BTW, there's a pressure point for Ro between the 2 and 3 hole counting the holes from the top of the flute.

costademaria wrote:
2. also i like to be tuned so when i open whichever hole to hear popping sound and if echo inside the shakuhachi - better, but clear and mellow and not reedy

About the popping noise, I guess that means that the sound moves very quickly to pitch associated with the hole. That would probably be the way the hole is cut, although I'd expect the effect to be more pronounced on closing the hole. Clear and mellow but not reedy would be either the utaguchi, bore, or both.

costademaria wrote:
3.the other thing i do is to make the utaguchi and the bore so that if i blow normally to go up and down all the notes without changing at all the lip and shack position, i mean it to be a kind of easy for me to play

That one is easy, it's just a matter of placing the holes so the pitch is correct. Don't misunderstand here, it's obviously not all that easy to place the holes correctly, but it's easy to see that pitch problems are mostly problems with hole placement.

costademaria wrote:
4. another question is that i like the sound to be so that when blowing normaly to be sweet but almost at the point of becoming reedy. my idea is that i can produce both from the same instrument with easyness

That sounds like the utaguchi again. Got to get those angles just right. From my experience with mouthpiece I put on the 3 1/2 foot piece, this is difficult. As soon as I got it playing again after ruining it, I left it as it was even though it wasn't as refined as I wanted it.

costademaria wrote:
5. when i put polymerising tung oil inside and outside to make strong shack it happens that i loose some of the warmth and gain some reedy-ness,so some little touch to the bore and where exactly to correct this? up till now i correct the utaguchi and even today i started a shack which i think of making it sweeter almost without any vibrations supposing that they will occure when i laquer the bore. or should i sand a bit the laquier to return some eartness to the shakuhachi? but i think here this happens not because of the gaine speed of the sound from better reflective surface, i suppose it happens from the hardening of the bamboo walls inside and outside? why i think this? cause once i have done a shakuhachi from inox. then i used it burn the nodes and accidently put it in water and it quenched/steel/, so it played differently. then i annealed it/ soft metal/ it again played the same. but the bamboo burns so i can not anneal it ofcourse...

The experience with the shakusteel is interesting. But I think reedyness is more due to the mouthpiece than anything else. I look at reedyness as being the level at which it's hard to tell if the instrument is a flute or a reed instrument like sax or clarinet. You want the mouthpiece shaped so that you can push as much wind through as possible to get that sound. Laquering the bore shouldn't have that drastic of an effect.

costademaria wrote:
thanks Bill Gates for the internet...

I thought Al Gore invented the internet

costademaria · 2007-03-28 07:11:58

thanks for the answers. in fact my idea starting the tread was the technical side. and may be i know the answers also. may be while getting the answers i thought "its good to discuss this so the other beginners will learn also from this especially if some of the proffecionals share knowledge."

Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

#1 2007-03-17 12:38:00

some questions about the fine tuning

#2 2007-03-17 12:40:28

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

#3 2007-03-17 13:19:12

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

costademaria wrote:

#4 2007-03-17 14:42:59

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

#5 2007-03-26 14:26:07

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

#6 2007-03-26 15:03:51

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

#7 2007-03-26 16:06:39

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

costademaria wrote:

#8 2007-03-26 17:09:58

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

#9 2007-03-27 10:21:17

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

gmiller wrote:

gmiller wrote:

mujitsu wrote:

#10 2007-03-27 16:49:10

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

#11 2007-03-27 19:20:59

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

#12 2007-03-27 20:24:32

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

costademaria wrote:

costademaria wrote:

costademaria wrote:

costademaria wrote:

costademaria wrote:

costademaria wrote:

#13 2007-03-28 07:11:58

Re: some questions about the fine tuning

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