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#26 2006-08-15 04:29:10

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Seth,

I enjoyed your post. Some might say that the essence of meditation is completely uncontrived and uncreated.

I agree with you though re. meditation, as long as there is present that realisation of where it all comes from, where it all goes, and that it is not separate from this ultimate identity at any time. Effort is as empty as everything else, why not watch it come and go.

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#27 2006-10-28 21:23:08

xiao_guy
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Registered: 2006-10-25
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Perhaps some tones/scales are more conducive to meditation than others...?

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#28 2007-04-11 12:58:58

shinkage ryu
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From: Virginia
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Well, just to interject a bit, i Have heard of few Honkyoku pieces played on a 1.8 flute, so I would assume that most honkyoku players play longer flutes.  Also, on another interesting note, they say that deeper tones match the physical harmony of the body better than a higher pitch.  To me, this is very evident when comparing the sound of a cello to that of a violin r viola.  The tone is much more rich and the physical aspect of the sound emitted from the instrument speaks to me much more.  Just a personal opinion....


“What sort of person are you, really, inside and what lies concealed there?”—the shakuhachi will undoubtedly supply the answer"
       
              (taken from: "Take No Kokoro" by by Kurahashi Yodo Sensei)

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#29 2007-04-11 13:10:08

Rick McDaniel
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Registered: 2007-01-08
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Seems to me that long begins at 2.4.

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#30 2007-04-11 14:35:22

shaman141
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From: Montreal, QC.
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I find that for me long begins around 2.7. I think that Rick's right though, by traditional standards 2.4 is where it starts.


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

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#31 2007-04-11 16:58:30

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

"Too long", for me, begins at 3.5. 

Anything of any length or width or material can be dogu.  I think it's potentially a meditator's trap to put any value into what the tool itself "is" or its properties or under what intention it was made.  It's actually pretty reasonable to discard "suitable" or "normal" tools of meditation because this -may- keep us mindful (if nothing else) as we walk our individual paths of meditation practice.

When there's an audience (including ourselves) then results become important.  But meditation has no audience (including ourselves), no expectations, and results don't matter -- only mindful practice matters -- so Ambi's wine bottle in a bomb shelter approach sounds perfect!

I will be meditating when I can kneel at the side of a highway and blow a discarded radiator hose and feel as I do when I blow a familiar flute sitting on my zafu in my apartment.  Until then, I'm just blowing hot air.  And so is everything I write here.  smile

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#32 2007-04-11 17:40:16

shaman141
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From: Montreal, QC.
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I have not yet encountered a shakuhachi or hocchiku that was "too long" for me, I hope to one day smile


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

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#33 2007-04-11 17:57:41

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

shaman141 wrote:

I have not yet encountered a shakuhachi or hocchiku that was "too long" for me, I hope to one day smile

Call Ken or Perry and they can probably whip one up for you!

For me 3.6 is the limit although Al Ramos thinks I should be able to handle a 3.9!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#34 2007-04-11 19:51:22

shaman141
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

During our first meeting, Al told me that I should be able to play a 3.6 - Tairaku you must have REALLY long arms!

I just got a gigantic flute from Perry that kicks my ass every time. I wonder what a Taimu over 3.3 would sound like?

Sean


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

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#35 2007-04-11 20:39:30

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

shaman141 wrote:

During our first meeting, Al told me that I should be able to play a 3.6 - Tairaku you must have REALLY long arms!

I just got a gigantic flute from Perry that kicks my ass every time. I wonder what a Taimu over 3.3 would sound like?

Sean

Well Kiku Day plays a 3.2 and she's only about 5 feet tall!

I have a 3.3 or 3.4 Taimu and it sounds good. This has been kind of a lighthearted discussion but to get serious for a moment, bore width and hole size are important parts of the sound. And the bigger those things are the more difficult it is to manage the flute. But the upside is great. All in all I would rather play a wide 3.0 pitched on E than a thin 3.2 pitched on E most of the time. Length is not the most important factor, I guess the size of the empty space is regardless of length.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#36 2007-04-11 21:44:51

D.J.
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From: Seattle
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Posts: 63

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

My two cents worth:  Tone. Key. Clarity. Timbre. All of this stuff is very personal and what one person says “sends” them, may very well turn you off.

My family is one of musicians and what one person likes, another detests. My daughter plays a variety of stringed instrument and she loathes the flute. Any flute makes her skin crawl. So you have to take into account the individual nature of the person.

In my case, I like bass notes. (So does my daughter, just not flute) If I decide to use a flute for meditation I use either my 2.9 or a Raga tuned Shakuhachi by Perry. The lowest note on the Raga hits the basement. When I play the didgeridoo, again, my preference is low. With a low C didge, I can play for an hour non-stop and simply depart the planet.

As for keys doing different things, I have read some research stating that the key of C or C# tends to be the note used most often in tribes worldwide during healing. Further studies on Bb indicate that note to be a very basic natural vibration throughout the planet and universe, including some black holes that resonate at that key.

Music is personal. Zen is personal. The soul is personal. Ask yourself what works; you will likely get the right answer there.

By the way concerning: "Well Kiku Day plays a 3.2 and she's only about 5 feet tall!"

That amazes me! I am 6'2" with arms that are 29 inches from arm pit to the middle finger tip.  I bought a 3.2 from Perry a year ago and had to send it back. It did not matter how I held it, there was no way I could get to the bottom hole. Kiku Day must have LONG arms or she is made of rubber!

D.J.

Last edited by D.J. (2007-04-11 22:14:58)


"Manifest great deeds by breaking the rules."
Awa Kenzo - Zen Archery Master
"If you think that you are a teacher, then you have failed to realize that learning comes from the student."
Kiko Aratsu

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#37 2007-04-11 23:46:55

shaman141
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From: Montreal, QC.
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I agree that bore width and hole size play a huge part- I mean how could they not right? My 2.9 from Perry has really large finger holes and that's the challenge, not the length.

Kiku is awesome, that's why she can play a 3.2 smile

Sean

Last edited by shaman141 (2007-04-11 23:47:18)


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

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#38 2007-04-12 00:58:39

D.J.
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From: Seattle
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Posts: 63

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I have not listened to many recordings of Shakuhachi. Is Kiku on CD?

D.J.


"Manifest great deeds by breaking the rules."
Awa Kenzo - Zen Archery Master
"If you think that you are a teacher, then you have failed to realize that learning comes from the student."
Kiko Aratsu

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#39 2007-04-12 01:02:42

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

D.J. wrote:

I have not listened to many recordings of Shakuhachi. Is Kiku on CD?

D.J.

I don't think so but you can hear her on myspace.

http://www.myspace.com/kikuday

She is an uncompromising player and very interesting.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#40 2007-04-12 14:29:12

D.J.
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From: Seattle
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 63

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I am ever so grateful that you guided me to Kiku’s work. She gave me “permission” to continue in the vein in which I have so far progressed. All my work, with Shakuhachi, NAF and didgeridoo is absolutely non-traditional. I have taught myself on each, letting the instruments help me to discover myself.

However, with the Shakuhachi, I allowed a stigma to grow in me, not fully confident that I should take my own path, just as the beginning monks may have, in discovering this instrument due to its tremendous tradition. Yet my Zen work is so powerful that walking into a known instead of this unknown hit me wrong.

Listening to Kiku’s soul come through her work and allowing it to be without boundary blasted open the last door that was holding me back.

Thank you,

D.J.

Last edited by D.J. (2007-04-12 14:30:14)


"Manifest great deeds by breaking the rules."
Awa Kenzo - Zen Archery Master
"If you think that you are a teacher, then you have failed to realize that learning comes from the student."
Kiko Aratsu

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#41 2007-04-12 15:51:14

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

D.J. wrote:

All my work, with Shakuhachi, NAF and didgeridoo is absolutely non-traditional. I have taught myself on each, letting the instruments help me to discover myself.

No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
            - William Blake

Give 'er.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#42 2007-04-12 16:43:01

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
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Posts: 574
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

The first thing one does to develop mindfulness is calm the body. Blowing Ro on any size flute will do the most to induce this. Blowing Ro on a long flute could induce this further. The lower notes have a slower vibration and require greater loosening of the throat to maintain the note. Try singing or chanting the lowest note you can get, you will notice how tense the body is and how you need to relax the throat, shoulders, abdomen, the whole body, to get a deeper note.

After the body has been calmed, one can then be mindful of feelings and emotions, then the states of mind, then phenomena. But note that this training in the Four states of Mindfulness is an orderly sequence, to get results from this practice, each step should be taken in correct order.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#43 2007-04-12 21:43:31

D.J.
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From: Seattle
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 63

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Karmajampa wrote:

After the body has been calmed, one can then be mindful of feelings and emotions, then the states of mind, then phenomena. But note that this training in the Four states of Mindfulness is an orderly sequence, to get results from this practice, each step should be taken in correct order.

Kel.

I have meditated and practiced many different forms of energy work for 20 years. And in those meditations I never realized that these four states do arrive in that order. Your discussion of low notes also makes a great deal of sense. I have never looked at it beyond what came naturally.

This works easily for me with simple meditation and meditation with music. But I was having difficulty getting back into that state with the longbow—greatly because of the interruption of other people in the archery range. Your four steps will aid me in getting where I want to be. Phenomena is what creates the perfect flight. It was getting to phenomena that was difficult.

Thank you

D.J.


"Manifest great deeds by breaking the rules."
Awa Kenzo - Zen Archery Master
"If you think that you are a teacher, then you have failed to realize that learning comes from the student."
Kiko Aratsu

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#44 2007-04-13 02:16:59

Hans van Loon
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From: Steenbergen, The Netherlands
Registered: 2005-10-16
Posts: 16
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

I am a long time zen practitioner, and a ji-nashi & ji-ari player
Indeed everything you do can be seen or experienced as a meditation. Life is may be nothing else in fact. But still I find that in playing ji-ari flutes you have to tense more in blowing, as in ji-nashi flutes, and especially the long ones, the tone takes your mind away more easily and they resonate deeper in the body. I would say, for meditational purpose, look on Tilo Burdach's site, www.tilopa.de
He has not too expensive long ji-nashi flutes, and the pieces he learns are really good for that purpose.
He learns you how to have an easy way of gripping for the longer flutes.

gassho

Hans


Kyotaku, the ZEN flute with the warm and serene sound

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#45 2007-04-13 11:38:55

kyoreiflutes
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From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Douglas Adams showed, in Hitchhiker's Guide, that what we're doing here is to figure out a particular question for a particular answer, like a massive supercomputer. I've always found this idea interesting, that there's something taking the information we've learned and compiling it for some greater "why" purpose.

Not that I believe it, but it's interesting, and wouldn't entirely shock me. Could it be that some beings created a whole "universe" just to find out answers to life? It's just like Virtual Physical Modeling in the computer.

Or the Matrix. wink

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#46 2007-04-13 12:34:25

D.J.
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From: Seattle
Registered: 2007-01-29
Posts: 63

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Consider this thought. It comes from a mixture of Buddhist/Tara/Quan Yin beliefs formed in 20 years of meditations and projections:

If you were the very beginning and life was simply one – singular. A thought. A knowing. Just one. Blackness. Lonely. Without reflection. Suddenly, a spark occurs. The “Knowing” in the midst of the blackness is utterly shocked. “another!”

The spark disappears and the Knowing is without again and the pain is immense. Darkness and only self again – collapsing in on itself. The utter weight of it, the mass contained in such pain and darkness, finally collapses in on itself so deeply that the density of the Knowing can no longer support itself in a single state. The spark ignites again into an explosion that is indefinable.

The spark exploded into countless “anothers” and the Knowing at the center of the dark is now all of the “anothers”.

And this Knowing now scattered throughout the universe knows “WHY” existence, but is unsure “HOW” existence.

The why is love. The how?

Learn then, through countless “anothers” and be more complete in simply being alone no more.

D.J.


"Manifest great deeds by breaking the rules."
Awa Kenzo - Zen Archery Master
"If you think that you are a teacher, then you have failed to realize that learning comes from the student."
Kiko Aratsu

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#47 2007-04-26 14:30:29

Zakarius
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From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Tairaku wrote:

I find that producing and sustaining tones on long shakuhachi takes more energy and brings the diaphragm into play more. In other words to play the same tune, let's say "Choshi",  on 3.0 rather than 1.8 requires more physical effort, which in turn produces more focus and concentration in a breathing sense. On the other hand playing in tune is more difficult and the out of tuneness is magnified the shorter the flute. Listening for pitch is more crucial.

I also find that my longer flute (3.3 - D#) takes more energy to play than my shorter (2.5 - G#) one. They were both shaped by Perry Yung who insists that longer flutes don't necessarily require more breath (at first, I accepted this tongue in cheek guessing that my skill was insufficient to match the power/clarity on the longer flute). It's now been 6 months of basically only playing the longer flute at least an hour a day and the 2.5 STILL seems easier to play. Anyone else have similar or contrasting experience?

Nevertheless, the sounds of the 3.3 just seem 'right' to me. I can't say that I really meditate, but playing the shakuhachi has definitely had a meditative, healing effect for me -- I ride a bicycle everywhere for transportation and the traffic here in Taiwan is, in short, insane. The deep breathing and 'resonating with the voice of the universe' has been incredibly therapeutic. (Perry, if you're reading this, thanks again wink

So perhaps the ultimate length of the flute isn't the issue but that its voice matches the voice of your heart.

Zakarius

Last edited by Zakarius (2007-04-26 14:31:16)


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#48 2007-04-26 17:20:30

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

Zakarius wrote:

It's now been 6 months of basically only playing the longer flute at least an hour a day and the 2.5 STILL seems easier to play. Anyone else have similar or contrasting experience?

Re/ creating and sustaining a good tone (as well as a good golden decay)...  I have most difficulty with short jiari flutes.  I have relative ease on jinashi flutes from 2.4 to whatever.  But even a 1.8 jinashi is easier for me than a 1.8 jiari.  So this really says a lot about my weak embouchure and experience more than anything, I think.  (I'm new to short jiari flutes.)  I intend to overcome this difficulty and bring something from that experience back to my big flutes though.  Alternatively, I may simply lose both embouchures altogether and go insane.  smile

Zakarius wrote:

So perhaps the ultimate length of the flute isn't the issue but that its voice matches the voice of your heart.

Nicely said.  Seems reasonable!  My low D# flute matches my heart then.  I intend to find a slightly flat 2nd harmonic in my heart that matches my 1.8 D!

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#49 2007-05-17 07:16:49

Aprayinbear
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Registered: 2006-06-30
Posts: 8

Re: Choosing A "Suizen" Shakuhachi?

A few thoughts about meditation, stillness, vibration and pitch.  Any pitch can find resonance within the mind and body, assisting in your meditation practice.  The lower, deeper frequencies found in the larger shakuhachi might be considered as the gross frequencies, are more easily felt, yet are generally limited in their ability to energetically penetrate and sustain.  The higher frequencies found in the 1.6 or 1.8 are more subtle, less easily felt, but more able to energetically penetrate and sustain.  Both have their place as tools for meditation or musical devotion.  As others have already suggested, try both and see which best suites your needs.  If I were to quantify my shakuhachi abilities I would say I am a very poor player indeed, still searching to find the elusive notes, and yet while my musical ability is severely limited, my ability to experience the benefit of the breath as I practice is limitless.  Isn't that what is most important?

All the best,
Duffy

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