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Tube of delight!

#1 2007-06-29 06:49:18

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Sutras galore!

Good morning everybody.


Just got an idea to stimulate this part of the forum a bit and open a positive can of worms from which everybody would gain something new out of it.

So what about having a discussion about what is the most influential sutra that you have practiced or studied in your learning of Buddhism?

NOW NOW!!! I will warn all of us that this is not about which sutra is the best to read or practice but about why for you it was good and what aspects elements or subjects in it have touched you. By doing it this way this might stimulate some of us to look at some sutras that we did not know of or that we did think were so relevant to us but after reading the opinions/reports of other members stimulated our interest.

Also when making your post or report please take the time to write which translation or version of the sutra you have read and other materials that you have used to study/practice.


So here I go with one of my favorites Sutra.

Ok Today I will try to write about a sutra called the Rishu Kyo and how I came to incorporate it in my daily considering I am a Zen priest and that this sutra is a part of the Shingon School which is actually esoteric in comparison with Zen which tends to be more based on realism.

I will not comment on the whole sutra itself but will concentrate on the second part of the sutra. Since for me this part has been the glue between my Zen lineage and the Mikkyo (Esoteric) practices that I learned in Japan. The reason why I say glue is for the following reason that by nature Zen and Mikkyo tend to not interact very well when being studied at the same time since fundamentally the goal is the same but the means are quite different. For me studying the Rishu Kyo has really bonded both and I do not feel any conflicts between both practices anymore. I hope that my short lecture will help readers and please make some comments.

The English translation that I have used for this lecture is by Miyata Taisen. Miyata Sensei has based his English translation on the comment Written by Dr. Shoun Toganoo in Japanese.

Here is a brief description of the sutra.

Sanskrit name: Prajna-paramita-naya Sutra
Japanese name: Hannya Rishu Kyo

Translator from Sanskrit to Chinese: Amogha Vajra (Ch. Pu-Kung 705-774) at the Ta-Hsing-Shan-Si temple in the Capital of the Tang Dynasty named Chang-an

So here is the text for the second part of the sutra.

PART 2 Way of Supreme Joy

At that time, the glorious one, the Lord Vairocana turned the Dharma here in making clear the principle that all Dharma’s/things are pure in their own being and mutually, harmoniously interrelated and interactive with each other.

“Enraptured and embraced in the heart of Buddha,
Received the grace of the compassion,
Enclosed in affection (interaction) of the great, profound love.
One who knows the purity of such true state of the self-nature (mutual interaction) is a Bodhisattva.

An arrow of the craving and eager affection shot,
Quickly reaches and touches the beloved one.
Tied with the threads of immaculate love,
Live in joy and win the mastery in will.
One who knows the purity of such state of rapture is a Bodhisattva.
Seeing the Buddha as He is,
Delighting in touch with the beloved one,
Enlarging the scope of love,
Gained in heraldic dignity (dignitary pride),
One who knows the purity of such state of enjoyment is a Bodhisattva.
Endowed with the Buddha’s wisdom,
Fulfilling the happiness of mind,
Illuminating the light of compassion,
Rejoice at the physical pleasure.
One who knows the purity of such state of fulfillment is a Bodhisattva.
The color to be seen is Buddha,
The sound to be heard is His voice,
The odor to be smelt is the fragrance of his Dharma,
The taste to be touched is His teaching.
One who knows the purity of such state of the sensory perception is a Bodhisattva.

And why? Because all Dharmas/beings/things are pure in their own being. It is because of the fact that it is the nature of all Dharmas to be mutually interrelated and interwoven with each other, that here is the purity of the perfection of wisdom. Wherever one awakes to his own original nature of the purity, there is a true way to enlightenment.

If Vajrapani has once heard this method/way of the perfection of wisdom which consummates the purity of all Dharmas in their own being, all the clouds of his accumulated and misdirected harmful actions, obstacles to reaching the Dojo/Place of enlightenment – which have been produced by wrong knowledge, defilements, being incapable of hearing the Dharma, and his past karma – Will be removed. And he will never fall again into the painful realm of rebirth. Whoever bears this method in mind, recites it, studies it, and performs it daily, even if he has committed serious crimes and sins, he will attain to the state of Samadhi (perpetual peace/harmony) in this very life by apprehending the sameness of all Dharmas, receive unlimited joy and happiness, and generate within his body the meritorious power of the everlasting, imperishable state of mind.

Thereupon, the lord Vajarapani Bodhisattva who has demonstrated spontaneously the true state (Abhi-Samaya) of enlightenment of all the Tathagatas, the best of all the noble assemblies/retinue, the conqueror of the triple realm, has achieved and is achieving the work/mission of all the Tathagatas benefiting all sentient beings.

In order to show again the importance of the way of great enjoyment – the principle of the perfection of wisdom – he demonstrated it smiling softly, forming the mudra of immovable confidence – that his forming the vajra fist in his left hand to place it to his left waist, raising the esoteric tool (five pronged vajra) with his right hand which signifies the original nature of enlightenment, and putting it to his chest.

Then he made the posture in confidence and uttered the heart mantra ‘’Hum’’ which reveals the significance of producing the vow of imperishable great enjoyment and providing its benefits to all living beings.

END OF PART 2

OK!!! So here we are after reading the second part of the Rishu Kyo. I am sure that there must be many mixed feelings after reading this part. The first being hey this stuff is great! It tells us to enjoy ourselves! The second being Wait a minute we are supposed to cut all those afflictions according to most Buddhist scriptures I have read. So finally what the heck is this Rishu Kyo about?

Well basically in Buddhism we are also told that it is also about using skillful means in order to liberate people from their afflictions. So in the case of the Rishu Kyo Vairocana Buddha when preaching is using the motivating power of passion in order to liberate and motivate sentient beings to practice the Dharma. So that being said we can say that after reading this part that most of our human actions that are usually to be negated in other sutras are to be cultivated in this one and perfected. I see no problem with this except the fact that to some readers taking this only at the first level this could be pushing them in the realm of excess of lust etc…

So to me what this chapter is representing is that all actions in everyday life are part of the dharma and can be used with the proper introspection to train ourselves and make full usage of our time in this realm in order to prefect our understanding and inclusion of all matter. Basically to see everything as one being entity.

Sadly I feel my explanation oversimplifies this sutra but I hope this will make readers curious about this lesser known sutra which is actually part of the daily practice of Shingon priests and also incorporates most of the Mikkyo concepts.

Thank you for reading.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#2 2007-06-29 07:15:51

Harry
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Re. Training and all that:

I'm not much one for sutras, not being of a 'religious' bent and all, but Dogen Zenji seemed to have quite a handle on all this stuff that we sometimes feel we should break our backs (and waste our time) crossing mountains and rivers for:

"Abandon all involvements. Give the myriad things a rest. Do not think of good and bad. Do not care about right and wrong. Stop the driving movement of mind, will, consciousness. Cease intellectual consideration through images, thoughts, and reflections. Do not aim to become a buddha. How could it be connected with sitting or lying down?" [Nishijima translation of the Fukanzazengi]

His 'just sitting' practice could be said to be characterised by a lack of goal, nothing to win or perfect, all perfect as it is in its imperfection... in the imperfect/ perfect practice.

Sorry, this isn't from a sutra, I wasn't struck by 'em in the same way. Dogen is more than this bozo ever needed.

Well, there is the Prajnaparamita of course...

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#3 2007-06-29 07:24:06

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Harry wrote:

Well, there is the Prajnaparamita of course...

I guess you were making reference to the heart sutra (Prajñāpāramitā Hridaya Sūtra).

When you mention the Prajñāpāramitā it does not only refer to the heart sutra it actually refers to a whole familly of scriputre under the Prajñāpāramitā familly of sutra.

Prajñāpāramitā
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajnaparamita

Heart Sutra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_sutra

Your post is actually quite appreciated but lets try to keep with sutras for now. Later after this thread as a couple of pages I will open a thread that will be dedicated to the comments on sutras or essays of the masters.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#4 2007-06-29 07:28:55

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Sutras galore!

Thank you.

This is interesting; it's always nice to see something new, previously unseen.  Yet - here - the message is consistent to those who seek to see clearly without fixation.  What Is includes the obvious: that which involves sensory impressions.  Though we must observe pratimoksha vows on the surface (and to the core!), I think that if we hold the world of appearances and sensory impressions to be the enemy, then we are deluded.  The Way doesn't cease to be the Way once there is manifestation, and the Way is unfolding within manifestation, free and clear.  Can WE remain free and clear within the body and within action?  Indeed, can "we" disappear within the display of appearances?  If so, the clarity of non-attainment naturally dawns, whether the method looks like the Bodhisattvayana or the Vajrayana.  The diamond reflects all appearance, though it is completely clear.

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#5 2007-06-29 07:30:12

Harry
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Gishin Wrote: "When you mention the Prajñāpāramitā it does not only refer to the heart sutra it actually refers to a whole familly of scriputre under the Prajñāpāramitā familly of sutra."


Yes, the Heart Sutra of course.

Regards,

H.

Last edited by Harry (2007-06-29 07:32:34)


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#6 2007-06-29 07:35:36

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Harazda wrote:

whether the method looks like the Bodhisattvayana or the Vajrayana.  The diamond reflects all appearance, though it is completely clear.

When you say Bodhisattvayana do you imply Mahayana? I am just not sure as to the Bodhisattvayana term as far as a particular school or category of buddhism. As far as I was told the major lines extant today are Hinayana,Mahayan and Vajrayana if Bodhisattvayana is not Mahayana please point me to some info on it I am quite curious about it.


Thanks!


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#7 2007-06-29 08:57:31

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Sutras galore!

I think this would be the same as saying Sutrayana and Tantrayana.  Mention was made of the Shingon school and the image of the vajra, so I too unified Sutra and Tantra in my post.  Both Sutrayana and Tantrayana are Mahayana.

Last edited by Harazda (2007-06-29 08:59:00)

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#8 2007-06-29 09:09:20

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Harazda wrote:

I think this would be the same as saying Sutrayana and Tantrayana.  Mention was made of the Shingon school and the image of the vajra, so I too unified Sutra and Tantra in my post.  Both Sutrayana and Tantrayana are Mahayana.

Indeed Vajrayana is part of Mahayana BUT it is rather considered as an extension of it that came later on. Pure Mahayana forms would be the Madhyamika school (Tendai) Pure Land, Flower Garland school etc..  When it comes to Tibetan Tantrayana and Shingon we cannot really consider them as pure Mahayana  since they are not anyway. Nowdays the distinction is not so clear anyway since as far as I am concerned Vajrayana/Shingon  is pretty much Mahayanized. As for the Tibetan lineages I cannot really comment.

Now lets try to get back to getting some of your posts about some sutras you have read guys smile!


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#9 2007-06-29 09:17:56

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Sutras galore!

You may believe whatever you want about schools and time, but don't forget to do Zazen and transcend all views about what is pure and what is not.

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#10 2007-06-29 09:28:40

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Harazda wrote:

You may believe whatever you want about schools and time, but don't forget to do Zazen and transcend all views about what is pure and what is not.

And your point being??? wink

This is not about believing just having a discussion. Yes Zazen does it all if you want to and playing the flute as well tea etc life in general!as a matter of fact Zazen can also be a belief as well. It seems that we have a hard time at keeping disciplined here on this part of the forum in trying to spend meaningfull bandwidth and bring some real content. Each time it does not take long until we get into rambling mode.

What was the topic again???

Posting some views and reasons why members would have chosen to concentrate or study a particular sutra with the references of version read study material etc. That was all.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#11 2007-06-29 10:00:59

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Sutras galore!

Gishin wrote:

Harazda wrote:

I think this would be the same as saying Sutrayana and Tantrayana.  Mention was made of the Shingon school and the image of the vajra, so I too unified Sutra and Tantra in my post.  Both Sutrayana and Tantrayana are Mahayana.

Indeed Vajrayana is part of Mahayana BUT it is rather considered as an extension of it that came later on. Pure Mahayana forms would be the Madhyamika school (Tendai) Pure Land, Flower Garland school etc..  When it comes to Tibetan Tantrayana and Shingon we cannot really consider them as pure Mahayana  since they are not anyway. Nowdays the distinction is not so clear anyway since as far as I am concerned Vajrayana/Shingon  is pretty much Mahayanized. As for the Tibetan lineages I cannot really comment.

Now lets try to get back to getting some of your posts about some sutras you have read guys smile!

I know this is playing around with semantics but my wife is from Sri Lanka and she calls Theravada "Theravada" and everything else "Mahayana".

Similarly Italians call Catholics "Christians" and the rest..............well they're very confused about what to call them. tongue


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2007-06-29 10:07:57

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Tairaku wrote:

Gishin wrote:

Harazda wrote:

I think this would be the same as saying Sutrayana and Tantrayana.  Mention was made of the Shingon school and the image of the vajra, so I too unified Sutra and Tantra in my post.  Both Sutrayana and Tantrayana are Mahayana.

Indeed Vajrayana is part of Mahayana BUT it is rather considered as an extension of it that came later on. Pure Mahayana forms would be the Madhyamika school (Tendai) Pure Land, Flower Garland school etc..  When it comes to Tibetan Tantrayana and Shingon we cannot really consider them as pure Mahayana  since they are not anyway. Nowdays the distinction is not so clear anyway since as far as I am concerned Vajrayana/Shingon  is pretty much Mahayanized. As for the Tibetan lineages I cannot really comment.

Now lets try to get back to getting some of your posts about some sutras you have read guys smile!

I know this is playing around with semantics but my wife is from Sri Lanka and she calls Theravada "Theravada" and everything else "Mahayana".

Similarly Italians call Catholics "Christians" and the rest..............well they're very confused about what to call them. tongue

Touche!!!

Yes this is exactly what we should try to avoid when posting. Lets try to use very common and clear terms and the accepted normalized terminologies as much as we can even if sometimes it is not totally clear or the final answer. Reason for that being that some of us know enough to be able to filter by themsleves and understand the words but I am sure many will just get confused by our ramblings so lets try when writing technical stuff about buddhism to think about those who are starting to learn about it and if we really need to get technical lets include some links with the ino etc.. when we think this might be out of the beginners league.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#13 2007-06-29 23:13:25

jb
Member
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: Sutras galore!

Hi.

Clarity is easy to do.

Theravada is a way of individual liberation.  One seeks to stop reincarnating.  Monk & lay precept vows are vows of individual liberation.

Mahayana is a way of universal salvation.  One takes the Bodhisattva vow to save all creatures before seeking one's own salvation.  Compassion for the suffering of others is key to this path.  Salvation comes from practicing the six perfections.  The fifth & sixth of these are perfect concentration and perfect wisdom (insight meditation).

Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana.  The practices are unique to this path, the goal is still Mahayanist.  A typical ritual starts with refuge (Theravada practice), generating compassion (Mahayana practice) followed by visualisztion (a form concentration [one of the perfections of Mahayana]) ending with dissolving everything into emptiness (a form or wisdom or insight meditation [another of the perfections])  So the methods are Vajrayana and the aim is Mahayana realization.  Mahamudra instruction, an advanced Vajrayana practice, sounds in part like Theravada practice.

The point is that the picture is simple: Buddha taught meditation techniques.  Zen is one of these - a separate transmission outside the sutras.  But I find sutra study a good aid to practice.  There's a lot to learn.

jb

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#14 2007-06-30 09:26:14

nomaD43
Member
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 2006-07-22
Posts: 96

Re: Sutras galore!

Gishin wrote:

Lets try to use very common and clear terms and the accepted normalized terminologies as much as we can even if sometimes it is not totally clear or the final answer. Reason for that being that some of us know enough to be able to filter by themsleves and understand the words but I am sure many will just get confused by our ramblings so lets try when writing technical stuff about buddhism to think about those who are starting to learn about it and if we really need to get technical lets include some links with the ino etc.. when we think this might be out of the beginners league.

Gishin, thank you for this. I am one of those simple minded beginners whose mind turns inside out when reading comments about sutras. I have read a number of sutras over the years, but either through ignorance of the terminology, or simple ignorance I have been completely dumbfounded by all of the lofty language and cannot make heads or tails of any of it. Are there any translations of sutras into a more common (street level) American English that those of us who have not had the privelage of formal Buddhist training might be able to fathom some kind of understanding from?

Jb,
Thank you for your clarification of the different schools(?) of Buddhist/Sutra practice. I have heard these terms, but have never known what they meant. Now, I have, still an unclear, but better understanding of what people mean when they use these terms.

Sorry for taking a further turn from the topic, but I have no meaningful Sutras for myself, because none make sense to me.

Damon

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#15 2007-06-30 23:45:11

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

nomaD43 wrote:

Gishin wrote:

Lets try to use very common and clear terms and the accepted normalized terminologies as much as we can even if sometimes it is not totally clear or the final answer. Reason for that being that some of us know enough to be able to filter by themsleves and understand the words but I am sure many will just get confused by our ramblings so lets try when writing technical stuff about buddhism to think about those who are starting to learn about it and if we really need to get technical lets include some links with the ino etc.. when we think this might be out of the beginners league.

Gishin, thank you for this. I am one of those simple minded beginners whose mind turns inside out when reading comments about sutras. I have read a number of sutras over the years, but either through ignorance of the terminology, or simple ignorance I have been completely dumbfounded by all of the lofty language and cannot make heads or tails of any of it. Are there any translations of sutras into a more common (street level) American English that those of us who have not had the privelage of formal Buddhist training might be able to fathom some kind of understanding from?

Jb,
Thank you for your clarification of the different schools(?) of Buddhist/Sutra practice. I have heard these terms, but have never known what they meant. Now, I have, still an unclear, but better understanding of what people mean when they use these terms.

Sorry for taking a further turn from the topic, but I have no meaningful Sutras for myself, because none make sense to me.

Damon

Sure no problem Damon.

Sadly I did not get any of the expected responses so far since nobody has posted any of their views or input on particular sutras. I was going to mail you privately a list of very clean books on major sutras used in Zen and various other schools but I decided to make it public since I think others might also benefit from this.

I will only list 3 books fro now and funny enough those 3 books all were translated and explained by the same guy. I believe that they are very accurate and well detailed for well versed and even beginning students. Hell I even use some of his ways of  explaining stuff when I do some of my sermons/lectures.


The Heart Sutra
http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Sutra-Red-P … amp;sr=8-3

The Diamond Sutra: The Perfection of Wisdom
http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Sutra-Per … amp;sr=8-4

The Platform Sutra: The Zen Teaching of Hui-neng
http://www.amazon.com/Platform-Sutra-Ze … amp;sr=8-2


As far as I am concerned if you are interested in Zen/Shakuhachi/Japanese stuff/ Chinese culture those 3 sutras are the pillars if you want to study some sutras and get a good grasp of what is the Zen mode of doing stuff I would recommended reading those before reading any of the comments of the masters since this will enable to have your own views and then adjust with the explanations of the masters in their comments. Sure I studied bunch of other stuff in Shingon, Tendai etc…. but when I blow a gasket I always come back to those 3 sutras since the big basics are all in there.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#16 2007-07-01 11:21:16

jb
Member
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: Sutras galore!

Hi.

Gishin, you recommend texts that are already advanced.  Starting with the Heart Sutra is very difficult.  I could not understand it until well along in my studies.  And my understanding may not be the 'right' one.  A basic grounding in Buddhism is useful.  I started with

Rahula, What the Buddha Taught

Buddhism is a philosophy as well as a religion.  Unless I can understand the interior worldview of Buddhism, my chances of understanding 'form is emptiness' etc. are very remote.  The various philosphical schools af Mahayana (Chittamatrin, Svatantrike, Yogacara, Prasangika, etc.) show just how easily one can wander off into dead ends.

Sorry for the technical twists I have introduced, but I did not know how else to make my point.

On the subject, my current favorite Buddhist scripture is 'Vakkali' which describes the suicide of a sick old man.  His death produces his enlightenment.  It's a view I never saw before.  Buddha does not condemn the suicide.  So life expectatons vary with time and place.  A nice twist on 'eternal truth'.  Ah! Reality, whatever that means.

jb

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#17 2007-07-01 11:47:14

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Sutras galore!

jb wrote:

Hi.


On the subject, my current favorite Buddhist scripture is 'Vakkali' which describes the suicide of a sick old man.  His death produces his enlightenment.  It's a view I never saw before.  Buddha does not condemn the suicide.  So life expectatons vary with time and place.  A nice twist on 'eternal truth'.  Ah! Reality, whatever that means.

jb

Very interesting point. We in the West have this idea that suicide is a "sin" as a result of the legacy of Catholicism. In fact sometimes it's an elegant and dignified solution.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#18 2007-07-01 12:39:15

jb
Member
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: Sutras galore!

Hi.

Tairaku says that in the West, suicide is a sin.

Buddhism teaches that taking life is black (or bad) karma.  So suicide will produce bad karma in future incarnation(s).  Buddha says that Vakkali will not reincarnate.  Here's another example of a deductive system collapsing on its internal contradictions.

Practice.

jb

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#19 2007-07-01 12:45:39

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

jb wrote:

Hi.

Tairaku says that in the West, suicide is a sin.

Buddhism teaches that taking life is black (or bad) karma.  So suicide will produce bad karma in future incarnation(s).  Buddha says that Vakkali will not reincarnate.  Here's another example of a deductive system collapsing on its internal contradictions.

Practice.

jb

Regardless of what the various religions have to say about suicide, it is more acceptable in certain cultures than others. In Japan it is common and not particularly a taboo as in the West.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2007-07-01 14:02:22

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: Sutras galore!

Bonjour,

Here's a little gatha from D.T. Suzuki's Manual of Zen Buddhism.

The Impermanence Gatha

All composite things are impermanent,
They are subject to birth and death;
Put an end to birth and death,
And there is a blissful tranquillity.

Sayings like this tend to resonate more with me than other gathas and sutras that albeit, contain very positive, hopeful and healing passages, but ultimately are egotistical glorifications of 'the unequalled', 'the unsurpassed way', the Buddha as 'Lord Buddha', etc...
As in abrahamic religions, Hinduism and many forms of Buddhism, the concept (or reality in my opinion) that impermanence is just that, impermanence, is very threatening. From The Zen Teachings of Bodhidharma,  'reincarnation is merely more grasping', 'you must see your true nature'.-
Now, is the ride we're on perhaps?
Be and do good, for the sake of being and doing good...

-kerry


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#21 2007-07-01 18:41:25

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

One sutra that I love and reread all the time and that has been very influential for me is the Lesser Mâlunkyâputta Sutta, which in the only translation I know is called "Questions which tend not to edification."

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#22 2007-07-02 03:20:31

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

nyokai wrote:

One sutra that I love and reread all the time and that has been very influential for me is the Lesser Mâlunkyâputta Sutta, which in the only translation I know is called "Questions which tend not to edification."

Thanks for the info. Could you post where can we get the translation of this sutra hardcopy or online? Is this sutra only extant in Pali or does it exist in Kanji form as well?

Thanks!


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#23 2007-07-02 03:33:51

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

jb wrote:

Gishin, you recommend texts that are already advanced.  Starting with the Heart Sutra is very difficult.  I could not understand it until well along in my studies.  And my understanding may not be the 'right' one.  A basic grounding in Buddhism is useful.  I started with

On the subject, my current favorite Buddhist scripture is 'Vakkali' which describes the suicide of a sick old man.  His death produces his enlightenment.  It's a view I never saw before.  Buddha does not condemn the suicide.  So life expectatons vary with time and place.  A nice twist on 'eternal truth'.  Ah! Reality, whatever that means.

Thank you for the info on the Vakkali sutra. As asked previously it would be very helpful if any of you quoting sutras or making reference to them posted links to translations available online or how to get hardcopies of them. Also more references as from which lineage the sutra comes from so we can have a better appreciation of how it should be viewed. If we do not do this each posts will not really be helpful to fulfill the purpose of this thread which is to share info. Sharing info means for us to provide ways to the readers to track down the books or websites we have read.

Also when you say the heart sutra is already advanced then what sutra is not advanced? What are your suggestions? The heart sutra is a basic scripture that takes you over the major Buddhist concepts it is very easy to read and understand and is to the point. It can be view as a resume of the Zen doctrine when read by a Zen viewpoint. Also YES it can be very deep if you study it at a scholarly level but bear in mind that most schools of Buddhism in China, Korea and Japan read and study this sutra and introduce it to laypeople so most layperson who follow Zen, Shingon or Tendai in Japan or China know this sutra and understand the general meaning of it.

As for the Diamond Sutra and the Sutra of Huineng they are also very easy to read because the language used is not cryptic and full off flowery allegories as you can see in the Lotus sutra or the Flower Adornment sutra leading sects to various interpretations/factions like Christians did with the bible. What is written is clear and without misleading poetic stories and leads the reader on the path of what I call mental masturbation/Yoga since they introduce you to the major concepts of Buddhism.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#24 2007-07-02 07:51:56

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Gishin wrote:

Thanks for the info. Could you post where can we get the translation of this sutra hardcopy or online? Is this sutra only extant in Pali or does it exist in Kanji form as well?
Thanks!

Pali only as far as I know. I wish I knew Pali so I could do a better translation than the stiff old standard one: http://www.bartleby.com/45/3/201.html

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#25 2007-07-02 09:21:35

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Sutras galore!

Here's my all time favorite from the Dhammapada:

61. If a traveler does not meet with one who is his better, or his
equal, let him firmly keep to his solitary journey; there is no
companionship with a fool.

The sentiment is good. If it were up to me I would translate it into English as "Better to walk alone than to walk with fools." Catchier. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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