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#1 2007-06-28 17:56:24

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#2 2007-06-29 00:49:53

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Ok only relation to Zen in this video is the fact he mentioned the word wink! Other than that quite funny.

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Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#3 2007-06-29 08:26:43

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

I remember David's performance at the Boulder World Shakuhachi Festival.  I'm glad that he has kept it up and by all appearances he has definitley honed his craft. 
I put this question to a respected Australian shakuhachi player some time ago: did and can humor belong in shakuhachi music or performance without the aid of visual props and still pay homage to traditional values or was traditional Japanese music, other than minyo, completely devoid of humor?
I, personally have found no incidence of humor in any traditional pieces for shakuhachi or ensemble (this may only reflect my lack of knowledge.)  Why is this?  It seems to me that humor is a basic human traite.  Sankyoku definitely existed as a source of entertainment and one might guess that people of that time enjoyed a good belly laugh.  Are there no inherent twists, inuendo or suggestions written into compositions that were intended as humorous but possibly desquised from us by our cultual distance?
I'd love to hear any ideas on this.
Jeff

Last edited by Jeff Cairns (2007-06-29 08:31:01)


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#4 2007-06-29 09:48:38

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Jeff Cairns wrote:

I remember David's performance at the Boulder World Shakuhachi Festival.  I'm glad that he has kept it up and by all appearances he has definitley honed his craft. 
I put this question to a respected Australian shakuhachi player some time ago: did and can humor belong in shakuhachi music or performance without the aid of visual props and still pay homage to traditional values or was traditional Japanese music, other than minyo, completely devoid of humor?
I, personally have found no incidence of humor in any traditional pieces for shakuhachi or ensemble (this may only reflect my lack of knowledge.)  Why is this?  It seems to me that humor is a basic human traite.  Sankyoku definitely existed as a source of entertainment and one might guess that people of that time enjoyed a good belly laugh.  Are there no inherent twists, inuendo or suggestions written into compositions that were intended as humorous but possibly desquised from us by our cultual distance?
I'd love to hear any ideas on this.
Jeff

Yes the point you are putting up is quite interesting and as far as I see it it might be due to the fact that Japanese society/culture is very much defined and separated in all kinds of very distincive aspects that many times will not intermix with each other. It seems for example that Shakuhachi/traditional music is a serious thing you go there to enjoy the music and thats it sit silently dont move dont smile type of a deal on yourr knees with a kimono wink. If you want to laugh traditionally then you go to Kyogen or Rakugo. Then if yu want to shake your booty to traditional minyo then you go to  a matsuri. This is the closest example I can get for now but to me the Japanese seem as very well compartimented people in their traditional entertainment compared to Chinese and Korean.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#5 2007-07-01 19:17:17

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

I am far from politically correct, and I do not identify very strongly with my Jewish heritage. However, at the 1998 shakuhachi festival I found DZ's performance utterly offensive and embarrassing. This video is milder and less nervous, but it still plays with the same ethnic stereotypes that were already dumb cliches in Shakespeare's era. Time has not made them any funnier, nor does his own Jewishness make them any more compassionate, clever, or politically helpful. As for the shakuhachi playing, quickly noodling up and down the five basic notes does not constitute jazz improvisation or much of anything except trying to con an audience into thinking you're proficient.

I would agree there's not much humor in honkyoku. There may be occasional quotes, Ives-style, from folk and popular music of the time, but I don't know whether these were considered humorous by the players or audience. I doubt it. Certainly they're not funny now.

In our age, irony and satire have become almost a sine qua non of the arts. The courageous depth and humanistic values of the great artists of the past and of modernist pioneers has been thrown out in favor of a wise-cracky postmodern interpretation of culture. Honkyoku can inspire us, I think, to look more deeply inward to universals and not worry so much about whether or not we're being funny or clever. At least it has turned me more in that direction.

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#6 2007-07-01 20:10:44

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

nyokai wrote:

As for the shakuhachi playing, quickly noodling up and down the five basic notes does not constitute jazz improvisation or much of anything except trying to con an audience into thinking you're proficient.

I'm actually curious. Does anyone know if the guy is qualified at what he does with shakuhachi or is he simply using techniques for other instruments to sound flashy? At first it seemed like he was pretty good. Now that I watched it again I noticed that I can actually repeat most of the things he does with a bit of trying. There aren't that many techniques that seem specific to the shakuhachi and most of it sounds like it would be pretty much the same on any instrument. There is a fair bit of speed going on though.

I watched another video where he plays and it was very similar. There was a lot of going back and forth between basic notes really quickly, hitting open holes repeatedly and doing a fast vibrato by waving the flute up and down. It didn't seem like something I would play on a shakuhachi because that wouldn't really utilize any of the strengths of the instrument. Still, I don't feel qualified enough to comment on if he is good or just - like Nyokai suggested - making it look like he is doing something by doing a lot of it.

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#7 2007-07-01 22:44:12

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

I agree with Nyokai.
Just playing 5 note scale dasnt make it jazz.
When something is categorized as jazz-will be mesured and judged with jazz standarts of improvising!
It reminds me of Path Metheny comment on Kenny G;-)

Last edited by geni (2007-07-01 22:45:59)

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#8 2007-07-03 12:04:56

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

geni wrote:

I agree with Nyokai.
Just playing 5 note scale dasnt make it jazz.
When something is categorized as jazz-will be mesured and judged with jazz standarts of improvising!
It reminds me of Path Metheny comment on Kenny G;-)

Those words are coming from someone who is doing real jazz shakuhachi. I remember that video of that performance you posted, Geni, I was extremely impressed by the jazz part. I agree that David's rendition of Summertime wasn't the best jazz-wise, and even technically wasn't exactly thrilling, but you have to admit he has pretty decent command over the instrument. As far as the comedy, I didn't find it all that good, but as far as it being offensive, yea, I guess it's old fashioned but most good comedians end up saying lots that would offend somebody or another. They can do the late-nite talk show host kind of thing and pick on certain political figures or celebrities, or they can do the less politically correct thing and wipe out an entire group of people.

On second thought, it does seem kind of sacreligious playing mediocre shakuhachi along with a mediocre comedy   routine.

P.S. I got somewhat offended by a comedian saying that they should have named the didjeridu a didjeri don't. Someday I'll have to learn that tune "far away" people keep asking me to play smile


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#9 2007-07-03 13:36:13

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

i find this guys shakuhachi playing to be absolutely hilarious. running his fingers up and down fast over the basic five notes. Gee, how exciting and innovative...
his humour on the other hand does not make me laugh at all.
As the other Phil said, his attempt at humour can be rather offensive. 

phil


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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#10 2007-07-03 14:23:55

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Well, its "of its time". People don't seem to like it, but people ARE funny aren't they?... Take my wife... no seriously, take her! etc. etc.

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#11 2007-07-03 15:00:09

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Yeah, on reflection it is certainly behind the general 'times', but maybe its all with 'his times'...

The music seems a bit of a gimmick. On the other hand, it seems quite easy to make a shakuhachi 'laugh': consider the descent of your average belly laugh... strange intervals, they seem familiar???

As an Irish man my favourite 'extreme' Irish joke is:

Did you hear about the Irish homosexual?

He preferred women to drinking.

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#12 2007-07-03 15:28:13

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Sure, his humor is based on outdated racial/cultural stereotypes.  And that's lame and unnecessary today. 

But as for his playing...  He banged out a competent, straight version of a jazz standard on a shakuhachi.  Yet I see unnecessarily harsh criticism and sarcasm directed at him.  Maybe there are better Gershwin shakuhachi players on the forum, but I would still expect members of this community to be a little more supportive of someone who shares music like this.

Or maybe I'm missing context.  Does DZ claim to be the ultimate jazz player or something?  Sorry if I don't really know who this person is or where he fits in.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#13 2007-07-03 16:56:45

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

I'm not a big jazz fan, so I wouldn't comment either way. At any rate, its an interesting context for the instrument (but, I've heard less substantial sounding things that take themselves much more seriously!).

Good luck to him says I, "May the Schwartz be with him" and all that!

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#14 2007-07-03 17:28:45

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

dstone wrote:

But as for his playing...  He banged out a competent, straight version of a jazz standard on a shakuhachi.  Yet I see unnecessarily harsh criticism and sarcasm directed at him.  Maybe there are better Gershwin shakuhachi players on the forum, but I would still expect members of this community to be a little more supportive of someone who shares music like this.

It may be that my attitude toward the music was somewhat influenced by his talking -- his boast of playing 10 instruments, his jokes, etc. If I was too harsh in my original comment, I apologize. But I think it's a stretch to call this a competent rendition of Summertime. Quite objectively: he ignores or runs over most of the changes and tries to stuff the music into the one or two simple riffs he seems to like to play. You hear very little Summertime -- a beautiful, soulful tune that could sound great on shakuhachi -- and a lot of nervous "hey, look at me, look what <i>I'm</i> doing!"

Why bother making this criticism? Because I think it may be helpful to students of music. My intent is not to be mean spirited, but to point out what I see as a trap along the path to learning musicianship. Thanks to DZ for providing a useful object lesson! Yes, if a second year shakuhachi student performed these same notes at a student recital, I might say good job. But in the context of setting yourself up as a performer within the jazz tradition, or any tradition, the standards are stricter, there is less room for ego unless you're truly great, and you may end up serving as a good example of what not to do. Certainly I've been there myself, and I would have been thankful in the long run for somebody calling me on it.

Contrast this performance with the shakuhachi tune Harry put up on Myspace. Clearly a stellar performer, though perhaps with no more shakuhachi training than DZ, Harry keeps it simple and makes it about the sound, not about himself. That's called being a musician.

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#15 2007-07-03 18:08:47

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

nyokai wrote:

dstone wrote:

But as for his playing...  He banged out a competent, straight version of a jazz standard on a shakuhachi.

But I think it's a stretch to call this a competent rendition of Summertime. Quite objectively: he ignores or runs over most of the changes and tries to stuff the music into the one or two simple riffs he seems to like to play. You hear very little Summertime -- a beautiful, soulful tune that could sound great on shakuhachi -- and a lot of nervous "hey, look at me, look what <i>I'm</i> doing!"

Why bother making this criticism? Because I think it may be helpful to students of music. My intent is not to be mean spirited, but to point out what I see as a trap along the path to learning musicianship. ...  Certainly I've been there myself, and I would have been thankful in the long run for somebody calling me on it.

Fair enough, Phil.  I listened to it again (skipped the first 2 mins!).  I can see what you mean about the performer ego.  You're right; this is uncommon for shakuhachi performers, and really isn't much of an asset for any performer.

nyokai wrote:

Harry keeps it simple and makes it about the sound, not about himself. That's called being a musician.

Yup.

Back to Summertime...  allow me to share my own preferences for this song.  I love the song, in any heart-felt rendition.  And you're right -- it's a song (at least as much as any other) that has set the bar high for playing/singing from the guts.  So I'd put Nina Simone up there for vocalist.  And maybe Louis Armstong is my instrumentalist of choice, of the recordings I've heard.  But then, I'll take anyone playing the song live with feeling.  I think I have two recordings of Nina Simone singing this.  Her voice isn't "strong", and I don't know if it's technically good, and the recordings are pretty lousy, but she's singing from the guts, as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe it would be interesting to hear David Zasloff's influences or gold standards for the song.

-Darren.

Last edited by dstone (2007-07-03 19:54:08)


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#16 2007-07-03 18:18:26

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

dstone wrote:

Maybe it would be interesting to heave David Zasloff's influences or gold standards for the song.

Nice Freudian slip!

I have always been in love with Nina Simone.

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#17 2007-07-03 18:40:50

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Phil,

Thanks for the kind words. Who'd have thought that 'Summertime' would prove the winter of our discontent? :-0

I'll put even less thought into my next effort!

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#18 2007-07-03 21:20:09

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

For  those without the festival document containing the  perfornmers introductions at the international shakuhachi festival in Boulder, David Zasloff's bio indicates he had eight years of formal study with Yamaguchi Hodo sensei.

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#19 2007-07-04 07:14:22

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

philipgelb wrote:

i find this guys shakuhachi playing to be absolutely hilarious. running his fingers up and down fast over the basic five notes. Gee, how exciting and innovative...
his humour on the other hand does not make me laugh at all.
As the other Phil said, his attempt at humour can be rather offensive. 

phil

I just remember that at the festival Zazloff's routine was being translated into Japanese. I watched the Japanese members of the audience who were totally baffled by all the Jew stereotypes and clearly didn't understand the point of the whole tirade. And they were also not laughing.

Then there's the fact that a large percentage of the Western shakuhachi players are Jewish (at least the good ones!) and most of them were also either disturbed or bored by it.

The best shakuhachi comedy I've seen was a cartoon Riley Lee had showing a Dylanesque folk singer featuring a harmonica brace with a shakuhachi instead of a harmonica. That was funny.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2007-07-04 23:37:56

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Though Zazloff's act may be offensive to some people, stand up comedy has never been known for being politically correct.  I would agree with Harry in that the music seems to be something of a gimmick in his act, but if shakuhachi helps get him an audience, then more power to him.  Considering the fact that Zazloff has been playing shakuhachi for a number of years, that he studied with a Japanese teacher and performed at a World Shakuhachi Festival, it is a bit surprising how much he relies on that up and down the pentatonic scale technique.  Less flash and the use of more ma and meri would make for a more soulful  "Summertime," I think.  As for shakuhachi comedy, there was a guy who appeared on a Japanese TV show some time recently who quickly made a shakuhachi by punching out five holes and carving an utaguchi in the top of a long fishpaste roll, played a tune on it, and then ate it.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2007-07-05 01:23:19)

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#21 2007-07-05 06:22:05

Harry
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
Website

Re: Shakuhachi in Zen Judaism.

Daniel,

Yes, that fishpaste shakhachiman was on youtube for a time. Now that was good... Although I suppose it may have offended some vegans?

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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