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#1 2008-02-12 10:23:41

Vevolis
Member
From: Toronto, ON
Registered: 2007-12-24
Posts: 175
Website

How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

I was trying to play along with Bruce Huebner's DVD's last night, if I were to be egotystical and place myself on a higher level of proficiency than I am currently, i'll call myself a beginner. tongue

I understand this is a particularly difficult instrument, namely because it has followed a level of tradition for hundreds of years, little has improved over the tonal qualities (Aka: Most are in tune with themselves, namely due to the nature of natural bamboo as each piece is unique) but how can I tell if I have a sutable instrument for playing?

I can pick up any number of instruments and tell if i'm wasting my time to a poor quality instrument, granted, "in poverty brings craftiness"; it's considerably undesirable to me for the Shakuhachi considering the range of price from very cheap to unattainably expensive. My Ro is different than Bruce Huebner's Ro. My Ri is different; everything is different including tonal quality. Some are warm. Some are soft. Some are relatively piercing.

Is this an instrument that can be enjoyed without a teacher? I understand that they can be used for Honkyoku meditation and an absense of thought and worry is desirable, yet so many people still insist on a good teacher.

How can I tell if my instrument is of quality or not? I don't doubt the maker in the slightest, but from the range of cost, I don't know what to make of my instrument.

Thanks,
Scott

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#2 2008-02-12 10:34:39

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Vevolis wrote:

Is this an instrument that can be enjoyed without a teacher? I understand that they can be used for Honkyoku meditation and an absense of thought and worry is desirable, yet so many people still insist on a good teacher.

As far as enjoying goes, I most certainly enjoyed playing before I started going to lessons. I still enjoy playing and it's pretty hard to tell if I enjoy it more or less than before. If you mean whether or not you can become any good at it, I guess it depends on what you wish to play. I don't doubt at all that someone could learn to make pretty good sounds and play some melodies after practicing for a while. Picking up the tradition, however, is best done with someone who actually knows something about it.

As far as meditation goes, I feel that it is somewhat misleading to call Honkyoku meditation. Sure, everyone has heard all that stuff about being relaxed and trying to clear your mind. Even so, playing that kind of music is no less demanding as far as technique goes as any other kind of music. Indeed, sometimes those pieces are technically more challenging than many other kinds of pieces. Although often portrayed as such, it's not really about sitting down, clearing your mind and letting some higher power take over. There is a lot of technical detail involved and only after you know all that can you really try to play effortlessly in a meditative manner. It's like riding a bike: you can generally go to fun trips only after you can actually ride one for more than a second without falling down.

Vevolis wrote:

How can I tell if my instrument is of quality or not? I don't doubt the maker in the slightest, but from the range of cost, I don't know what to make of my instrument.

Ask someone who knows. I've had few people with just couple of weeks of playing try some of my flutes. They couldn't really tell the difference between any of them. Until you can play well, any flute tends to feel like a bad one except for those that are completely worthless and/or broken. Anyone who plays well should be able to tell pretty quickly if the instrument is good or not.

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#3 2008-02-12 11:28:58

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Concerning the quality of flutes:

http://nyokai.com/tips/index.php?n=Tips.BuyingANewFlute

Concerning enjoying shakuhachi without a teacher:

ANY instrument can be enjoyed without a teacher. However, when it comes specifically to honkyoku, the tradition is as much about transmission as resulting sound. My personal belief is that without a teacher you are not immersing yourself in the honkyoku tradition and are missing a lot of what it's all about.

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#4 2008-02-12 13:17:06

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Vevolis wrote:

Is this an instrument that can be enjoyed without a teacher?

It sure can! I've enjoyed the instrument off and on with folk-style shakuhachi, meaning not suitable for Japanese music, since the early 90's and have been enjoying playing a lot for just over a year on "real" shakuhachi. I've had only one lesson from Brian Ritchie last October. I just improvise though. 

As far as whether your instrument is a good one, if your goal is to play Japanese music, you'll need a teacher or good player to assess the instrument for you. I got an instrument from Ebay not too long ago that the seller seemed disappointed in that totally takes me to new states of mind because of the strength of the sound and the in-tuneness. Why is there such a difference of opinion? The seller likes to play Japanese music and I don't. I recently asked Perry Yung, who had done some repairs to the instrument when it was in the previous owners hand, what he knew about the instrument and he said that it didn't play as a good shakuhachi should play when overblown. To me this instrument rocks my world, to someone wanting to play Japanese music it's a bummer. Go figure... Before I thought I might want to eventually learn Japanese music, now I kind of wonder if learning Japanese music is something I really want to do.           

Be aware that your mileage may vary, I have an extensive background with sliver and other flutes. In general, flute is a difficult instrument. Depending on your temperment, you might need a teacher even just for blowing the thing. That can help with feedback that you're going in the right direction.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#5 2008-02-12 13:38:18

Vevolis
Member
From: Toronto, ON
Registered: 2007-12-24
Posts: 175
Website

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

radi0gnome wrote:

Be aware that your mileage may vary, I have an extensive background with sliver and other flutes. In general, flute is a difficult instrument. Depending on your temperment, you might need a teacher even just for blowing the thing. That can help with feedback that you're going in the right direction.

The first instrument I was ever formally introduced to in public school was the flute. The first test I took was to play (ascending) was a B-flat concert scale. A mark for each successful note. I got 0/8.

So they told me to try the Tuba instead, at which I was very successful throughout my schooling years with concert and marching bands.

Here's hoping i'm more successful this time around. wink

Thank you for the advise!

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#6 2008-02-12 13:51:19

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Vevolis wrote:

The first instrument I was ever formally introduced to in public school was the flute. The first test I took was to play (ascending) was a B-flat concert scale. A mark for each successful note. I got 0/8.

Up here in Finland, the first instrument (and the only one, unless you want to try something else) they make everyone play is the recorder. These are not the good recorders that actually sound nice but rather cheap plastic ones that, even when played well, sound like someone is screaming bloody murder. I think most people never ever want to have anything to do with music and instruments after that experience. Recorder is one of the most hostile instrument towards beginners that I know. Although it's not that hard to play, the sound gets really, really horrible if you overblow it even slightly. Since beginners just tend to blow hard without putting much thought into it, the sound keeps going up and down almost randomly as you try to play something. Shakuhachi fortunately gives you the same note in the next octave in most cases. Recorder, not so much. Because of that, any mistakes in blowing lead to completely horrible melody that doesn't sound anything like what you wanted to play.

To this day I truly hate those things. All that forced playing made me want to never again touch any instrument. It wasn't until I found shakuhachi that I understood that end-blown instruments don't sound horrible by design.

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#7 2008-02-12 13:56:00

Vevolis
Member
From: Toronto, ON
Registered: 2007-12-24
Posts: 175
Website

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Yeah... we played recorders before "concert band" (aka: ensembles). I didn't want to share that part of my past... horrible nightmare visions.

It's not to say I was bad at it, though there are only so many pleasing tones you can get out of a melted down VCR.

Last edited by Vevolis (2008-02-12 13:57:49)

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#8 2008-02-12 13:56:04

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Hey Vevolis,

I see you are from Toronto.  I used to work in TO.   I think the maker named Bonchiku lives not too far from Toronto, in the Kitchener area, but I am not sure about that.  He is famous for his 2.7 shakuhachi.

I have only been at it for a year (on my own with no teacher),  so I am still very much a beginner like yourself.  My advice, for whatever it's worth, is not to worry too much.  When you're home, just walk around with the flute and play on.  It won't matter if you're good, or if you are terrible.  Just play, and don't worry about it.  I would suggest not even thinking at all, and just breathing into the flute.  Experiment, and don't worry if it works or not.

As for flutes.  You can't go wrong with a Yuu.  If you want a nice bamboo flute speak to Perry or Ken.  They are both very kind and patient and very friendly.  Oh yeah, and they both make flutes you would enjoy to play on, for sure.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#9 2008-02-12 21:00:17

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Vevolis wrote:

...how can I tell if I have a sutable instrument for playing?

I can pick up any number of instruments and tell if i'm wasting my time to a poor quality instrument, granted, "in poverty brings craftiness"; it's considerably undesirable to me for the Shakuhachi considering the range of price from very cheap to unattainably expensive. My Ro is different than Bruce Huebner's Ro. My Ri is different; everything is different including tonal quality. Some are warm. Some are soft. Some are relatively piercing.

How can I tell if my instrument is of quality or not? I don't doubt the maker in the slightest, but from the range of cost, I don't know what to make of my instrument.

I've got three flutes: one I made, one under $1,000 and another over $2,000 -- I've been playing for under 2 years but I can definitely tell the difference in quality (i.e. the most expensive is indeed the best flute of the bunch). It's got a much more solid sound throughout the range of notes. However, when I first got the flute I found it really difficult to play well. The kan (higher) octave notes always had an annoying buzzing sound. It took me a number of weeks of patient practicing to develop technique suitable to 'bring out the quality' of the flute. Obviously, I'm still trying to bring out it's best and have a long way to go. So if you're having trouble getting solid notes out of your flute, it could be flute or your own technique -- the only way to know for sure is to hand the flute to a more experienced player (better yet a professional)... otherwise, just keep at it.

Vevolis wrote:

Is this an instrument that can be enjoyed without a teacher? I understand that they can be used for Honkyoku meditation and an absense of thought and worry is desirable, yet so many people still insist on a good teacher.

There was quite a debate on the forum about this topic about a year ago (http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=1563). Now that I've studied with a teacher via Internet videoconferencing software, I have to say that having a teacher makes the process of learning traditional pieces much more enjoyable -- there's only so much my non-musically trained ear can pick up from careful listening. However, I really did still enjoy learning & playing on my own before starting with a teacher... and it was much cheaper.

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#10 2008-02-13 11:35:51

philthefluter
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: 2006-06-02
Posts: 190
Website

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Following on from the brief thread about recorders. The recorder is an amazing instrument, even the plastic variety. It is essential to get good tuition. The problem is that it is often taught by school teachers with little musical training or musicians who are proficient in other instruments such as flute or sax but with minimal recorder training.

I am a trained recorder teacher and used to teach it full time. I can make 30 eight to ten year olds play a melody together that will bring tears of joy to any listener. Not tears of pain which unfortunately is the prevailing experience of recorder.

My experience of playing its amazing repertoire from renaissance to contemporary is not unlike the experience of playing shakuhachi. There is a close connection to breath and oneness with the wood.


"The bamboo and Zen are One!" Kurosawa Kinko
http://www.shakuhachizen.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shakuhachizen

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#11 2008-02-13 13:05:38

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

philthefluter wrote:

Following on from the brief thread about recorders. The recorder is an amazing instrument, even the plastic variety. It is essential to get good tuition. The problem is that it is often taught by school teachers with little musical training or musicians who are proficient in other instruments such as flute or sax but with minimal recorder training.

What I always found strange is that I have never ever heard anyone play recorder in a fashion that sounded interesting in the least bit. This is not to say that it can't be done - I'm sure it can - but every single person I've seen play it sounded about the same as your average digital sample machine. Most tunes I've heard come down to long, solid notes with zero variance unless someone decided to use vibrato that again often sounds like hitting a button on a machine.

I'd love to hear how it sounds to actually play that thing well. So far I have nothing but bad experiences with it. Some of you may have seen the South Park episode that made a parody on there being a national recorder concert and a whole bunch of kids had to play live. The result was a huge mess that sounded like static noise. This is roughly my idea of recorder right now.

I don't suppose you could recommend recordings by someone who actually knows how to play properly? I'd love to hear what it's supposed to sound like.

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#12 2008-02-13 13:37:43

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Go to YouTube and search under 'recorder.'  There are actually some amazing clips of recorder music to be found there..

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#13 2008-02-13 13:45:57

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

amokrun wrote:

I'd love to hear what it's supposed to sound like.

http://www.jillkemp.com/music/l%27oiseau.mp3

http://www.jillkemp.com/music/bach.mp3


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2008-02-13 17:12:10

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: How to tell if a Shakuhachi is of reasonable (playing) quality...

Try this for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rccp8Kc … re=related

Almost any instrument, when played well, can be wonderful.   Recorder is no exception.

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