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#1 2008-09-10 16:32:53

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Sasa buki in kan register?

How to play a good sasa buki in kan register? 
 
 
I am trying to make the lips opening smaller and increase the air pressure at the end of the note. I have the feeling that I am missing something... 
 
Well...  I am going to practice more and come back here  later... 


Thanks!


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#2 2008-09-11 08:44:40

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

I've practiced this technique some.  It is in Perry Yung's book that comes with his beginner flutes.  The sound is supposed to resemble the shape of a bamboo leaf.  Trailing off at the end requires closing the lips to increase air pressure, but not an increase in air pressure form the diaphram, in fact the opposite is desirable.  The shrinking embochure, ideally, would be relative to the decrease in "lung" pressure to maintain an even tone that simply decreases in volume.  It is tricky, to say the least, in any register.  I am comparing the volume to the shape of the leaf.  Perhaps that is not correct?


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#3 2008-09-11 10:45:07

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Hi... 
 
I will take a look at the points you are saying... 
 
I've seen sasa buki in others books too... This is a way to call the dynamics alterations such as crescendo, diminuendo and they are really important to make the end of some lines... nothing worse than hear a note that needs to disappear in the air, choking, stumbling, interrupting abruptly...  So I think you are making the right comparation of sasa shape with volume changes....
 
I use to study with these patterns: <, > , <> and >< , which are most common... in otsu they are  good most of times, but in kan they are sounding bad most of times...   
 
Let's see if I can made them well soon...


A big hug and peace!


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#4 2008-09-11 11:33:01

jdanza
Moderator
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2008-06-19
Posts: 85
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Hola hermano
  I would start by simply playing long tones in the kan register for as long as you can. This will eventually give you the muscle strength and control
you need for those techniques. Try even dai kan!.
Shakuhachi requires a lot of strength,, muscle and breath control. The more you stick with discipline to the basics the less you will struggle with advanced techniques.
Good luck and good blowing...
Ashe...

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#5 2008-09-11 11:33:42

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

lowonthetotem wrote:

I am comparing the volume to the shape of the leaf.  Perhaps that is not correct?

Totally correct. The difficulty with doing this in Kan is that you are already pushing the airstream more quickly, and it's more difficult to hold the pitch steady and perform the dynamics of sasa-buki.

The solution is, as usual, to practice it all a thousand more times.

Rinse; repeat.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2008-09-11 13:38:36

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Sasabuki in kan really is more about the "leaf shaped" note. In otsu it's also about the breathy quality which is what distinguishes it from Komi buki. Komu means "to put into" or "include". This technique is more of a honk that creates the leaf shape as one puts all the breath into the shakuhachi and can be done in both registers. Sasa buki however is about breathiness too, which sounds pretty crappy in kan.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#7 2008-09-11 15:24:56

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

The  question is:

How to proceed to play with beauty the dynamics variations in kan (cresc., dim., or combinated),  on the same note, mantaining the pitch  ?

Last edited by Musgo da Pedra (2008-09-11 15:40:34)


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#8 2008-09-12 03:13:45

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

The  question is:

How to proceed to play with beauty the dynamics variations in kan (cresc., dim., or combinated),  on the same note, mantaining the pitch  ?

Ears.
Absent sufficient discrimination,
Tuner.
Absent electronic devices,
Tuned string instrument, sympathetic vibration should result.
Another tack might be to maintain the correct beat frequency between unmatched pitch sources (the flute and any constant-pitch source). {Puts us back in the Ears answer again}.
Absent any of those, (actually should have been first on the list), Sensei.
Absent sensei, another set of ears.

In case I mis-understood the question, (happens all the time), practice the opposite. That is, loud tends to go sharp, make it go flat, the make it stay the same. Soft tend to go flat, make it go sharp, make it stay the same. Aside from meri-kari considerations, pay attention to what's going on throughout the entire air column. Shape of mouth cavity, tension in neck, pressure at diaphragm, all make a difference.

or,

Chalk it all up to wabi-sabi, take a nap, come back and read responses that make more sense than this one. 8^)

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#9 2008-09-12 11:04:00

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

The  question is:

How to proceed to play with beauty the dynamics variations in kan (cresc., dim., or combinated),  on the same note, mantaining the pitch  ?

Ears.
Absent sufficient discrimination,
Tuner.
Absent electronic devices,
Tuned string instrument, sympathetic vibration should result.
Another tack might be to maintain the correct beat frequency between unmatched pitch sources (the flute and any constant-pitch source). {Puts us back in the Ears answer again}.
Absent any of those, (actually should have been first on the list), Sensei.
Absent sensei, another set of ears.

In case I mis-understood the question, (happens all the time), practice the opposite. That is, loud tends to go sharp, make it go flat, the make it stay the same. Soft tend to go flat, make it go sharp, make it stay the same. Aside from meri-kari considerations, pay attention to what's going on throughout the entire air column. Shape of mouth cavity, tension in neck, pressure at diaphragm, all make a difference.

or,

Chalk it all up to wabi-sabi, take a nap, come back and read responses that make more sense than this one. 8^)

later...

Great advice Bruce! You seem to be saying work hard but it may not show for a while. Very true with the shakuhachi. A lot of work for tiny and many times unnoticeable, steps.

Henrique, it takes a lot of practice and patience. Developing the lips and support for shakuhachi playing is like a gymnast training on the wooden beam. We can all walk along the thin plank but those who can piroutte and cart wheel on them have gone through a lot of years of intense training. They have to develop the muscles and balance to do those unique things.

If you can play a kan note now, you will be able to get it to do what your ears hear in time. Just keep doing it and the muscles will develop. Let your ears tell your lips, mouth cavity, tongue position and diaphragm what to do to get the sound you want. They are collaborating to make it work.

The simplest suggestion I can make is to start with both ends of the dynamic range. Practice playing the note as loud as you can, even if it sounds bad (take notes so that you know you are getting louder by the week). On the same practice session, play the same note as soft as you can (also note your weekly development). By doing this, you will be pushing the boundaries of your technique.

Hope this helps mi amigo, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#10 2009-02-18 06:04:30

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

I just tried playing a few notes in kan last night. How can I be sure I am actually playing notes in Kan? They sound almost identical to otsu but just a bit higher pitched. Can I go over pitch, even pushing the notes out of kan? A few times I actually got a high pitched squeal out of the flute. I don't know what that was.This was a first time attempt for me last night. I was just glad to be able to get a note in kan. Or at least, I think it was in kan.Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by purehappiness (2009-02-18 06:06:01)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#11 2009-02-18 08:28:48

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Purehappiness,  the basic fingering of notes in otsu are the same in kan except for ri (otsu) and hi(kan).  Otherwise there is no difference.  So, if you first play a note, say re, in otsu then follow with exactly the same fingering but using the method that you used to achieve what you thought was kan, and the sound is the same as otsu but an octave higher, then you're in the kan register.  If the attempted kan note is higher, but not the same pitch as the otsu note, then you are likely playing a harmonic overtone and you will have to adjust your lip and blowing pressure to try to get the same pitch up an octave from the initial otsu note played.  Hope that helps a bit.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#12 2009-02-18 08:55:28

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Thanks. The note sounds the same but it is higher pitch I guess you could say. I was confused if it was just the volume I was increasing instead of getting to Kan.I will keep trying.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#13 2009-02-18 09:49:21

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Greg, Do you remember the song My Sharona by The Knack? That lead motif starts with one note going back and forth between the octaves. It is the same pitched but doubled in frequency, they are one octave apart. You can probably listen to a free sound file of My Sharona somewhere on the internet.
Hope this helps.

Last edited by Yungflutes (2009-02-18 09:49:51)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#14 2009-02-18 10:00:05

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

I doubt it will very much. From what you said you're not sure what a kan note sounds like. This is often the case with beginners. To be sure you need a reference, either lessons with a teacher or a cd that has both Otsu and kan. Just the basics: the first 5 notes in Otsu and the same 5 in Kan. Then those played one after another Ro otsu then Ro kan, etc. Then there will be no confusion. Even listening to My Sharona will leave you asking, "is this what he's talking about"? The result of a good effective lesson with a teacher is that they will work with you to eliminate some doubt and instill confidence.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-02-18 10:24:55)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#15 2009-02-18 10:58:26

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Thank you. I do have perrys cd that goes thru the scale for otsu and kan. I will listen to that again. A teacher is definitely in my future also.My sharona does give me something to go with too. Thanks perry.


Thanks again
Greg

Last edited by purehappiness (2009-02-18 11:08:43)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#16 2009-02-18 11:35:34

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Yungflutes wrote:

You can probably listen to a free sound file of My Sharona somewhere on the internet.
Hope this helps.

And for those of us who were in high school at the time, that riff is permanently embedded in our brains!

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#17 2009-02-18 12:06:13

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

And that can only be replaced by singing "Alice's Restaurant".  I'm glad you got your reference Greg.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#18 2009-02-18 22:44:43

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

...or "Sweet Home Alabama."


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#19 2009-02-19 06:00:59

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

I always liked Ted nugents cat scratch fever myself. I don't know if I can play it in kan though. sad


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#20 2009-02-19 12:47:04

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

A good reference for octaves from a tune most everyone knows is,

"Somewhere over the Rainbow".

The word, "Some..." Is what would be lower octave otsu, "where" what would be the upper octave kan. Same note, next higher register of pitch. It's a motif used in different places throughout the song.

As a fellow beginner, depending on how sensitive your shakuhachi is to flipping into the upper register you may always have a shade of kan mixed with the otsu which could be confusing. It has taken me a couple of months to reach kan consistantly at will. It also helps that I have made different shakuhachi (PVC and bamboo) different lengths/pitches as well as different characteristics - some I have to fight for a solid pleasing kan, others that jump up way too easily, and I have to relax my embrochure to play otsu, especially ro. It's good practice for me to play all of them in rotation.

Hope this helps!

Christopher


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#21 2009-02-19 13:38:45

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Yes, For RO I just basically rest my lips on the edge. At times, it is hard to get Ro once I have been trying the other notes.Thanks for the advice.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#22 2009-02-19 20:00:19

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Sasa buki in kan register?

Taldaran wrote:

As a fellow beginner, depending on how sensitive your shakuhachi is to flipping into the upper register you may always have a shade of kan mixed with the otsu which could be confusing. It has taken me a couple of months to reach kan consistantly at will. It also helps that I have made different shakuhachi (PVC and bamboo) different lengths/pitches as well as different characteristics - some I have to fight for a solid pleasing kan, others that jump up way too easily, and I have to relax my embrochure to play otsu, especially ro. It's good practice for me to play all of them in rotation.
Christopher

Christopher, I can relate to your experience of learning to play notes in the kan register as well.  And, like you, I also like to play on different styles and lengths of flute.  I play my different shakuhachi in rotation just because I love to hear the various tones of the different flutes.  All in all, this lack of loyalty to only one shakuhachi may have slowed down my learning but I feel all the richer for it.

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