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#1 2009-06-02 17:38:43

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Licenses "R" Bogus!

nyokai wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

A lot of people hate shakuhachi as a result of listening to performances and recordings by well trained players with good technique. cool

Ha, true enough!

And then there are mediocre performances with mediocre technique by people with shihan and dai shihan licences. These people may have learned the repertoire (which, given, is no small feat in itself ) and paid the big fees for their licenses to the "shihan-mills" in Japan.

Because they have made the basic minimum requirements and paid the big fees, they carry their licenses ahead of them as a royal standard yet represent traditional music very poorly.

The main fault there lay with the teachers who accept their students money and bestow masters and grand masters degrees upon them, but that's another story and I don't really want to create any more 'negative waves' here.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#2 2009-06-02 18:31:03

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Yeah, I never charge for licenses, it's all about sexual favors.

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#3 2009-06-02 19:06:15

axolotl
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From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

How licentious.

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#4 2009-06-02 19:49:00

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Sexual "transmission"...


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#5 2009-06-02 21:05:06

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

nyokai wrote:

Yeah, I never charge for licenses, it's all about sexual favors.

More honest. smile

(btw, the title of this new thread was not mine. Our intrepid administrators, with lightning speed, moved this post from the 'gaffs' thread and relocated it here under a name of their own creation so the gaffs thread wouldn't stray so much.)

Last edited by Chris Moran (2009-06-02 21:09:42)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#6 2009-06-02 21:33:12

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Taldaran wrote:

d a few have said that they couldn't stand the "shrill squealing" of traditional shakuhachi music, as one japanese lady put it.

Probably jiari.lol


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2009-06-02 22:59:40

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Tairaku wrote:

Taldaran wrote:

d a few have said that they couldn't stand the "shrill squealing" of traditional shakuhachi music, as one japanese lady put it.

Probably jiari.lol



roll  [sighs....]


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2009-06-02 23:09:54

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

I'd rather hear a sincere but mediocre amateur honkyoku peformance than a polished (and amplified) Weather Report-style jazz-funk fusion shakuhachi performance by a virtuoso.

Also I wish there was a way to edit out the stock background track of flowing water and crickets from some otherwise worthwhile recordings.!

Shakuhachiacs - please, nix the water sounds. All it does is fill me with the urge to piss in the coy pond.  wink


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#9 2009-06-02 23:55:34

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Tairaku wrote:

Taldaran wrote:

d a few have said that they couldn't stand the "shrill squealing" of traditional shakuhachi music, as one japanese lady put it.

Probably jiari.lol

Now, don't call her names just because she doesn't like shakuhachi.


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#10 2009-06-02 23:59:56

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

ABRAXAS wrote:

Shakuhachiacs - please, nix the water sounds. All it does is fill me with the urge to piss in the coy pond.  wink

That should alter the pond's demeanor.

"Had we but MA enough, and time . . ."


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#11 2009-06-03 00:24:11

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

If WE were to decide what it would take in order for a Dai Shihan credential/honor to be bestowed on someone, outside of the Japanese system, what qualities and/or achievements would be important?  Pretend that we are setting a new system up outside of Japan.  What would be important?

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#12 2009-06-03 02:34:27

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

madoherty wrote:

If WE were to decide what it would take in order for a Dai Shihan credential/honor to be bestowed on someone, outside of the Japanese system, what qualities and/or achievements would be important?  Pretend that we are setting a new system up outside of Japan.  What would be important?

Dai Shihan presupposes Shihan, so first you have to start with that. What would a Shihan be?

And what does "outside the Japanese system" mean? All of us who have licenses can trace them back to Japan within a generation or two of teachers. How could you set up a new system without it somehow being based on the Japanese one? Even using the term "Dai Shihan" sets us up within the Japanese system.

There are not enough good players in the West to set this up without referring back to the Japanese.

Nevertheless it's true that the way licenses are currently being handed (not to mention bought and sold) out in Japan and the West is biased.

I would suggest that players should be nominated for Shihan or Dai Shihan from within their own ranks but then confirmed by masters of other ryu. The incestuousness of the current situation is what makes it lack credibility.

I've talked about this with various teachers and some of them think it's just a matter of attending the lessons, quality of play is not the determining factor.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#13 2009-06-03 03:09:54

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

madoherty wrote:

If WE were to decide what it would take in order for a Dai Shihan credential/honor to be bestowed on someone, outside of the Japanese system, what qualities and/or achievements would be important?  Pretend that we are setting a new system up outside of Japan.  What would be important?

Hmmmm. That could be a whole other discussion. The Japanese system is alive and well outside of Japan and it is fraught with the same problems it has inside Japan. It's a perfectly good system in and of itself: In each ryu you have a repertoire that you are required to learn. That's pretty clear.

The assumption is that you can play it and teach it at the level of a "master" (shihan). We're still good, but ...  that has become more subjective and more monetized over time. 

It has become easier (and certainly less scrupulous) to buy a license from a teacher who may set very low standards for what they consider to be mastery of the repertoire, good technique, the ability to teach well -- not to mention the aesthetic standing to represent the instrument in the outside world.

One of my teachers told me a story about beloved Watazumido, whom my teacher knew personally (presumably). A student came to him (a Western student, presumably) and asked Watazumi to teach him to play shakuhachi to the level that he would have a master's degree (shihan license).

Watazumido said, according to this story, "Write me a check for $10,000 and I'll draw up a license for you with all my stamps and seals. You go on and play shakuhachi and have your master's license. You can come back to me or lessons or not. I don't care."

According to my teacher, this showed Watazumido's contempt for the monetization and corruption within the ranking/licensing system not only within the shakuhachi world, but also the martial arts world and the priesthood.

Perhaps the greatest disservice is to the many fine, accomplished (and licensed) masters of the instrument inside and outside of Japan who were fortunate enough to come from strong lineages with high standards.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#14 2009-06-03 03:24:17

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

In some lines Shihan is for your playing and Dai Shihan is for your service to the shakuhachi in other ways.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#15 2009-06-03 08:11:35

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

ABRAXAS wrote:

Also I wish there was a way to edit out the stock background track of flowing water and crickets from some otherwise worthwhile recordings.!

I heard a record, if I am not wrong of Yoshio Kurahashi, that sounds like if he have record in a house, or temple, I am not sure... it has a lot of natural sounds, NATURAL, not background mix in studio, and it sound great... Silent, yet not so silent as a record cabin, and NATURAL in the sense the word mean, with reality. Really nice to hear. It is almost like be there, hearing the master play...


About the licenses, I have a friend woth who I use to exchange some email sometimes and he is  really good player... one day he told me he was finishing her masters... In my portuguese I read and saw something...then I ask him "Ahhh, so will you have a shihan now?"... he said, no, not a shihan, I am finishing my master at university." and he also add "A shihan is easier to get"...


In my head the money thing came with this last phrase... And now, as I am always with low budget I would like hopefully find a nice girl Dai Shihan with the Nyokai mind (I am without luck in this,  but thats ok, I am also many miles away from any credencial)...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#16 2009-06-03 09:39:49

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

I'm already a fully certified Pope, that doesn't make me a better person... tongue


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#17 2009-06-03 10:16:04

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Hi Nyokai!

I was looking the name of the cd and it is 'Yoshio Kurahashi, Honkyoku, musique zen pour shakuhachi' ...  a review says: "All tracks were recorded in temples or concert halls. Some pieces were recorded in the original location from which the composition originated."


I am sure that the records he made with are great also, and I hope hear those also, soon... I think those recording sessions were great, aren't?


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#18 2009-06-03 11:09:36

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Kurahashi sensei's latest cd was recorded on location you could say. Some at temples and others like Takiochi actually recorded at the falls in Izu peninsula where the song originated.
At times I feel these ambient sounds can add a great deal of atmosphere to a piece. There are only a smal percentage of people out there, mostly players, who really appreciate the raw untouched sound. Even within the small pool of players out there everyone has there own tastes. If your goal is to possibly spread the music to a wider audience sometimes a bit of background can help. Maybe it's too much for some, but I have a video up on myspace with one of my songs that has a natural soundscape in the background. Izukawa Hidefumi recorded the natural setting in the mountains near my house..I quite like the atmosphere.
As for the main topic. Well I've been offered them by people higher up and in the end my teacher says, "You have permission to teach (I teach at 3 locations) and perform as well. Take the money you'd spend on a shihan and buy a shakuhachi, you'll get much more use out of the bamboo than the paper certificate on the wall." For me, it is just not a necessicity right now. At some point, possibly if I moved home where it's probably more important for other westerners to have some "proof", maybe I'll look into the title. I'm not knocking the system, conducted properly I think it is a great honor, but often there seems to be a lot of business involved in that process. As for now I'm content just learning, passing on what I've learned, and performing and trying to move an audience.

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#19 2009-06-03 11:41:50

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Just for the record my comments were tongue-in-cheek.

I like field recordings even if the quality is low, sometimes even more so, and natural background noises add to it.

Something recorded in a cave or by a waterfall is copasetic, something overdubbed with the ACME TRANQUIL BABBLING BROOK SOUNDS FOR SHIATSU CD is probably less exciting. wink


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#20 2009-06-03 12:12:30

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

ABRAXAS wrote:

something overdubbed with the ACME TRANQUIL BABBLING BROOK SOUNDS FOR SHIATSU CD is probably less exciting. wink

Is Wile E. Coyote doing bodywork now?


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#21 2009-06-03 12:23:11

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

actually , gravity related bodywork  smile

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#22 2009-06-03 14:31:37

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Chris Moran wrote:

.And then there are mediocre performances with mediocre technique by people with shihan and dai shihan licences. These people may have learned the repertoire (which, given, is no small feat in itself ) and paid the big fees for their licenses to the "shihan-mills" in Japan.

.

       In Japan things are quite different. It's a different cultural context. Yes, there's a business thing going in some sects but the people who get Shihans in those settings are in it for the "club" aspect and to have a goal in that context. They almost never try to teach or call themselves a shakuhachi teacher as nobody would study with them anyway. And if they did, they wouldn't last for long.

Nyokai wrote:

I think paying for licenses makes no sense at all and is susceptible to corruption. In terms of choosing who is ready for a license, I wouldn't trust myself not to be subconsciously influenced, however subtly, by the prospect of getting a few thousand dollars -- especially if there are some major bills sitting on my desk. (I trust myself so little, in fact, that I won't take a cut on selling flutes either.)

As the amount of time and hard work continues,  I think the numbers of students trying to get a Shihan is naturally weeded out and so nobody is going to make thousands of dollars. As a teacher, ones reaction could go the other way. Because there is also money involved, the teacher has to make sure there's a REAL reason, a justification for the passing of money from one hand to another. Not only for certificates. There should be no difference in the way a teacher thinks about students paying for certificates as they do for paying for lessons. I know my lessons are worth the money as I put a lot of thought time into this and the students get results. Likewise, I don't "hand out" anything when it comes to getting certificates. The students have to earn them. It takes a lot of time and hard work. We (the students and myself)  talk about this stuff a lot too. We also talk about the fact the some people have taken advantage of this system for getting what they want, be it money or a piece of paper. My students  actually are very hard on themselves. They want this to have MEANING so they want me to be strict and not let them move on too fast, etc. I guarantee that it's a lot of work to get a Jun Shihan and Shihan here. I think the way to ensure there is a good system outside of Japan is in the hands of the students and teachers. The teachers just need to be responsible and the students to have good motives. If you are wanting to be a better player and continue on with your studies and practice AND are teacher material, and this I feel is important, that you're aptitude is to be a teacher even if it wasn't teaching shakuhachi, then your heart, mind and talents will be in the right place and you'll probably be a fine teacher. The rule of having the 3 years between getting a Jun Shihan before being allowed to "apply" for a Shihan is in place for a good reason. To see if the person can develop into a good teacher. Nobody is really a good teacher without experience. Just like getting out of college and teaching in high school, you need experience. A teacher should be in contact with their student who is starting to teach to know how they are developing.  I find that after teaching a song for 30 or 40 times or more, I'm continuing to find more ways to present something, more perspectives, different exercises and drills to offer the students.

           This seems like a light hearted discussion so far with humour (except my post). However, I think it's a matter to be considered seriously and I hope it doesn't just open the doors for complaints from the same people who don't want to commit beyond a certain point with either time, money or energy, and see them jump on the negative band wagon. I think if you have a real complaint you should take it to your teacher first and work it out, otherwise, this is theoretical and won't be effective unless one thinks they want to get into name calling, etc. Of course, the conversations may make some "teachers" think more and try harder too. And likewise, if a student has a complaint, they better have the big picture in mind and be trying really hard to do what the teacher is demanding.

Again, I think when it comes to money for certificates the thinking is no different than money for lessons, shakuhachi, materials, etc. I think it comes down to commitment and responsibility on both the students and teachers part. It's no different than any other activity. It's your life, you draw the lines and decide if you have some pride in what you're doing, are being real or being sleazy.

  You could say this about almost anything: " I think paying for------makes no sense at all and is susceptible to corruption". Substitute the word "college" or "car". It takes time to develop something, to make something so the production costs are part of the fee. Market prices are sometimes objective but then a lot of people make a lot of money doing things they have no capacity to do with responsibility.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-06-03 14:49:31)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#23 2009-06-03 18:01:17

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Interesting points Michael and Phil.

Michael what you say about "wanting to teach" is intriguing. You think a Shihan or Dai Shihan is only reserved for those who teach? Some good players don't want to for any number of reasons. I think John Neptune doesn't teach any more.

I can think of several Western Shihan and Dai Shihan who don't teach. I can also think of one Dai Shihan who doesn't even know how to hold the instrument properly. I'm serious. There are also some who are OK players but shouldn't teach because they are KNOBS and scare people away from shakuhachi. It's tricky.

In the end every ryu or sub-ryu has their standards and then every teacher has his/her standards.

Michael it's also interesting to me what you said about waiting three years to "apply" for a Shihan. I didn't know you were supposed to ask for one.

It's good that you are standing your ground and keeping specific standards, I know it must be difficult when you have students demanding accolades before or without completing the studies.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#24 2009-06-03 20:56:04

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Licenses, and how they can be bogus
I think we've heard this story before
In Japan all permits are expensive
Just getting  a driver's license
Can cost you $3000 or more
Diploma mills and legitimate universities
Churn out diverse college degrees
Pray tell me the difference if you please
Japan uses an old guild system
In a context that's not Western
Sure there's corruption but where
On this planet is there a system that doesn't need fixing?
(just carping at the bottom of my koi pond)

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2009-06-03 21:03:39)

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#25 2009-06-03 21:03:58

STUPID HIPPY
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 20

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Ain't that the truth. Like you need a license to drive a car of course you need a license to play a shakuhachi, it's a lot more dangerous and will take you further. Like 18 year old kids can get sent to Iraq and kill people but they can't buy a beer! It's injustice man.


Zen and Bamboo are one. Or is it two? Far out.

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