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#1 2009-06-04 07:23:59

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

There's an Okinawan dude named Jin who works for us at Chado. He plays sanshin and sometimes we play Okinawan tunes (thanks Bruce for the notation). But recently he expressed an interest in playing "traditional Japanese music". He wanted to play "Sakura" and "Kojo no tsuki". Of course Okinawan music uses ryukyu scale and those "traditional" songs use insempo.

I play meri pitches very low and I was interested to find that he was also expressing those pitches the same way. Most of his songs don't use the "meri" notes so this is not a usual part of his pitch reference. So I showed him those pitches (tsu meri and chi meri/u) and said, "You play those very low compared to western pitch. Is that by choice, are you matching my pitch or what?" He said "Huh?" I demonstrated the melodies using Japanese and Western pitch standards and he said, "Oh, yeah, I hear the difference." But obviously he had never thought about that. He said he just naturally plays those low pitches.

This might be one difference between Japanese and Western musicians playing Japanese music, to the Japanese those pitches are "natural" whereas we have to learn them as Westerners. This kid is 23 years old.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#2 2009-06-04 07:56:01

caffeind
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From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Its the equal temperament scale that is unnatural. The ear naturally wants certain notes flatter. I dont think its necessarily a Japanese/Westerner thing.

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#3 2009-06-04 07:59:48

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

caffeind wrote:

Its the equal temperament scale that is unnatural. The ear naturally wants certain notes flatter. I dont think its necessarily a Japanese/Westerner thing.

Yeah but certain notes are pretty universal and others have much different interpretations according to culture.

Even if you look at Japan they express those notes many different ways.

I'm not too crazy about equal temperament. I have a pipe organ that's tune to perfect intervals.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#4 2009-06-04 08:13:23

No-sword
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From: Kanagawa
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

When he plays Okinawan tunes, are his in-between notes flatted in the same way?


Matt / no-sword.jp

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#5 2009-06-04 08:20:00

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

No-sword wrote:

When he plays Okinawan tunes, are his in-between notes flatted in the same way?

Different scale.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2009-06-04 10:06:05

caffeind
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From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Tairaku wrote:

caffeind wrote:

Its the equal temperament scale that is unnatural. The ear naturally wants certain notes flatter. I dont think its necessarily a Japanese/Westerner thing.

Yeah but certain notes are pretty universal and others have much different interpretations according to culture.

Even if you look at Japan they express those notes many different ways.

I'm not too crazy about equal temperament. I have a pipe organ that's tune to perfect intervals.

Yes, some notes are the same. It does vary with culture, but I think it depends on musical context more than cultural. As you say, even in Japan they express the notes in different ways. The same thing happens in Classical music, and many other types of music.

Last edited by caffeind (2009-06-04 10:15:06)

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#7 2009-06-04 12:14:21

Taldaran
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From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

caffeind wrote:

Its the equal temperament scale that is unnatural. The ear naturally wants certain notes flatter. I dont think its necessarily a Japanese/Westerner thing.

I didn't know that!

It would explain a lot though. when I am adjusting the holes on the shakuhachi I make to tune them, even though the tuner says some notes are close to pitch, It sounds a hair sharp to me. I just tend to ignore it...

Thanks!


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#8 2009-06-04 14:35:42

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Taldaran wrote:

caffeind wrote:

Its the equal temperament scale that is unnatural. The ear naturally wants certain notes flatter. I dont think its necessarily a Japanese/Westerner thing.

I didn't know that!

It would explain a lot though. when I am adjusting the holes on the shakuhachi I make to tune them, even though the tuner says some notes are close to pitch, It sounds a hair sharp to me. I just tend to ignore it...

Thanks!

This link has a comparison of equal temperament to  just intonation (scroll down some until you find it): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
For shakuhachi notes, minor 3rd (F), 4th (G), 5th (A), and minor 7 (C), the equal temperament minor 3rd is 15 cents flat, the 4th is 2 cents (almost unnoticably) sharp, the 5th is 2 cents flat, and the minor 7 is a whopping 31 cents sharp.  Sort of makes me think it's not a good idea to practice with the tuner too much... not enough to toss it out the window, but it's probably a good idea to be aware of the differences.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#9 2009-06-04 17:58:11

No-sword
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From: Kanagawa
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Yeah, it's a different scale, but it's the same structure: C (E) F G (B) C, stacked tetrachords (if he's playing the Okinawan music I know...) So what are the E and B like usually? Flatter than a piano, sharper...? How's the G?


Matt / no-sword.jp

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#10 2009-06-04 18:07:35

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

I'll scrutinize it next time he comes in with the sanshin.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2009-06-04 18:23:11

No-sword
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From: Kanagawa
Registered: 2008-07-09
Posts: 115
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Cool, please let us know! (I ask because scales obviously aren't genetic, and you don't think that he was just copying your pitches, so maybe it has something to do with the music he usually plays)


Matt / no-sword.jp

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#12 2009-06-04 19:26:16

Lodro
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From: Australia
Registered: 2009-04-02
Posts: 105

Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Tairaku wrote:

I'm not too crazy about equal temperament. I have a pipe organ that's tune to perfect intervals.

Yes it's a ghastly sound! ALTHOUGH - I think Terry Riley's 'The 10 Voices Of The 2 Prophets' is a great example of it actually sounding 'good'

I think the type of sound one enjoys is entirely a socio-cultural thingy based on what you're brought up on and how it relates to the culture/environment that you live in and associate with.


Each part of the body should be connected to every other part.

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#13 2009-06-04 19:42:50

ssakamoto
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From: Gujo Hachiman, Gifu-ken, Japan
Registered: 2009-02-01
Posts: 43
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

This is barely related to the topic, but I think you'll find it as utterly fascinating as I did. There's a great science radio show called Radio Lab. They did a podcast on tone, pitch, language, and how our minds process sound. It is really fun, and it changed the way I think about these topics. It's very fun, I recommend the whole hour. If you hate it, I'll give you your hour back.

Musical Language, on Radio Lab


"One thing the bamboo tells you from the start is that it's going to take years and years and years. Better get to work." -- Mujitsu

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#14 2009-06-04 22:18:29

caffeind
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From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Lodro wrote:

I think the type of sound one enjoys is entirely a socio-cultural thingy based on what you're brought up on and how it relates to the culture/environment that you live in and associate with.

To a point, yes, but you can go beyond that with training.

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#15 2009-06-04 23:15:36

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

Play with two shakuhachi a interval of 4 half tones. (major third)... one shakuhachi is playing D and another playing a F# (higher then D)... use your ear and find a nice sounding for these interval...you have many, infinite possibilities... Now play the D and the F# on a piano (or other fixed pitch instrument) and compare those two notes on piano and those in which you got the better intonation on shakuhachi... what 3rd sound better to your ear?

It's not at random that the perfect fourth and perfec five are called perfect... Who wants, please, to comment that???


It's about the grey thing... we put some black on white, some more white over the white not so white, and some feel... the pure feeling...

Last edited by Musgo da Pedra (2009-06-04 23:28:19)


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#16 2009-06-05 00:03:36

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

ssakamoto-Radiolab is awesome! Thank you for posting that!!

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#17 2009-06-05 01:17:14

Lodro
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2009-04-02
Posts: 105

Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

caffeind wrote:

Lodro wrote:

I think the type of sound one enjoys is entirely a socio-cultural thingy based on what you're brought up on and how it relates to the culture/environment that you live in and associate with.

To a point, yes, but you can go beyond that with training.

That's what I was getting at, I just didn't manage to say it very well. I'll try again. By this I mean your immediate culture and environment, that which you 'involve' yourself in right now. For example I was brought up on a strict diet of Western Classical music, for a while my immediate culture/environment was to live that tradition, I got sick of it, I looked around at other cultures/environments, I adopted some of them (asian musics, electronic, experimental, etc), and they became part of my culture/environment. I guess that's kind of a long way of saying what you said quite succinctly - essentially you can teach yourself to enjoy what was once foreign (or even not enjoyable).

(note: this however can't be done with 'Country and Western' and 'Pop Music') wink


Each part of the body should be connected to every other part.

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#18 2009-06-12 05:57:40

Jason Castner
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From: binghamton, ny
Registered: 2007-12-19
Posts: 80

Re: Interesting conversation with Okinawan sanshin player about pitch

prashadian polyculturalism and the musical diaspora


north south east and rest of my life...I'm single but the Tao is my wife?

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