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#1 2009-07-31 22:56:55

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

I received this from Ronnie Seldin today.  He said he didn't have a way to link it on the forum so I am putting a link up to it.  You can find it at: http://www.floridashakuhachi.com/MAThesis.pdf


Thanks, Brian

From Ronnie:

Hi Everybody,

Here is a Master's Thesis just finished by Shinsuke Kitamori, for a Master's Degree at Doshisha Univercity in Kyoto.
It is entitled "Shakuhachi Culture Taking Root in the U.S.A.: The Construction of "Japanese" Authenticity and the Lifeblood of American Players"
I have his permission to share it with you.

It is very interesting to see these points of view taken and observed by a native Japanese.
Naturally, their points of reference, and the way they see us are sometimes different then how we see ourselves.
And moreover, he does make some interestingly 'different" points then I am used to seeing.

I hope that you enjoy the work as I did.
Shinsuke will join us at Shakuhachi Camp this month.

Ronnie


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#2 2009-07-31 23:00:16

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Thank You for posting this! Very interesting!


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#3 2009-08-01 02:58:06

Bas Nijenhuis
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From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Thanks Brian! I look forward to reading it!


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#4 2009-08-01 03:49:58

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Thank you Brian!

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#5 2009-08-01 06:01:29

waryr
Member
From: Leesburg Florida
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 70

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Hmmmm........Somzing is wrong! Could not download. Says Damaged File could not be repaired.

Could you send it to me direct, Brian????? Sounds VERY interesting. Thanks.


If you understand, things are just as they are, if you don't understand, things are just as they are.

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#6 2009-08-01 07:27:16

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

It's interesting how he divides American shakuhachi players between those who like the sound and the music and the others who must relate it to Japanese and Zen ideas. And how he defines these two concepts.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2009-08-01 22:42:57

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

A study comparing attitudes across non-Japan would be interesting, or even different areas of the U.S.- in case anyone is hurting for a Thesis topic out there.

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#8 2009-08-02 06:24:32

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Thanks for making it available, Brian. Can you pass on the author's email address so I can send a few comments on?

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#9 2009-08-06 16:46:22

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Thhis is an interesting and informative read.
As mentioned, the suggested preference towards Honkyoku by 'westerners' is indicative of something.
It is probably half of my approach to playing shakuhachi, and it feels to me that this is because of the depth of expressiveness in this form of playing, compared to, for example, Minyo, and particularlywhen the instrument is used to play 'western' styles.
I like to play Minyo, Blues, Contemporary and Classical styles, and there is always some opportunity for expressiveness, but my preference remains with the Honkyoku style, I am not sure why, perhaps the loose rhythm, or no rhythm, or the rhythm of the breath, or perhaps the range of effects employed in expressing Honkyoku style.

When I listen to the Shakuhachi being used to render Western styles, the dynamics feel relatively 'flat' whereas the dynamics of Honkyoku often, and usually, have greater range.  And for my ears, this is the 'sound of shakuhachi'. Often, a western piece sounds so similar to a transverse flute, or even an oboe, that no shakuhachi effect is present to include that particular colour to the mix.

I know there are examples that show differently, but my growing preference is to develop the particular expressive range of dynamic effect the Shakuhachi offers as an instrument.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#10 2009-08-06 17:14:03

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Ronnie, do you have the authors email address?


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#11 2009-08-06 19:21:35

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

The part that really touched my heart was the interview with Allen Nyoshin Steir, when he talked about his first exposure to the shakuhachi with his girlfriend/future wife, bonding with the shakuhachi, first concert (just blowing air- no sound -didn't give up!)his heart attack and his doctor telling him to keep playing because it will keep his heart strong.

Allen said that the shakuhachi was his heart...

I can completely relate. These days I only pick up my guitar to keep my calluses firm and to gig. The rest of the time I only play my shakuhachi.

Thank you so much for sharing this!


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#12 2009-08-06 21:16:38

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Taldaran wrote:

The part that really touched my heart was the interview with Allen Nyoshin Steir, when he talked about his first exposure to the shakuhachi with his girlfriend/future wife, bonding with the shakuhachi, first concert (just blowing air- no sound -didn't give up!)his heart attack and his doctor telling him to keep playing because it will keep his heart strong.

Beyond that, he lost his teeth and had dentures put in and it took several years for him to get his embouchure back. He is dedicated.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#13 2009-08-07 00:17:53

Nyogetsu
Kyu Dan Dai Shihan
From: NYC
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 259
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Brian and all others,

Shinsuke Kitamori's email address is <artista716@yahoo.co.jp>

He will be attending KiSuiAn Shakuhachi camp next week.
I am sure that he would appreciate any comments on his work.


The magic's in the music and the music's in me...
"Do you believe in Magic"- The Lovin' Spoonful

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#14 2009-08-07 13:40:16

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

I found that a very interesting and worthwhile read which gave me some new insights into shakuhachi culture.

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#15 2009-08-07 20:02:16

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Tairaku wrote:

Taldaran wrote:

The part that really touched my heart was the interview with Allen Nyoshin Steir, when he talked about his first exposure to the shakuhachi with his girlfriend/future wife, bonding with the shakuhachi, first concert (just blowing air- no sound -didn't give up!)his heart attack and his doctor telling him to keep playing because it will keep his heart strong.

Beyond that, he lost his teeth and had dentures put in and it took several years for him to get his embouchure back. He is dedicated.

Dang! yikes That is dedication!


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#16 2009-08-24 23:56:05

ssakamoto
Member
From: Gujo Hachiman, Gifu-ken, Japan
Registered: 2009-02-01
Posts: 43
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

What an interesting paper!
I had so many thoughts while reading it.

Regarding reversalism, I thought of a friend of mine here in Japan. I am American, and he is Japanese. He is learning classical western music on the recorder and I am learning classical Japanese music on the shakuhachi. Funny stuff.

Regarding the idea of the mythscape, or shakuhachi fans who also like to fantasize about a Japanese myth of authenticity or history, I found the idea interesting. But I feel like all music fans engage in this kind of fantasy. For example, suburban white kids who like gansta rap like to imagine themselves as drug dealers while they listen to their music. Besides the shakuhachi, I love medieval Spanish music. I often picture myself in a mosque in Al-andalus when I listen to music.

Regarding the spiritual nature of the music, I love that aspect, but it is not necessarily unique to the shakuhachi. I wonder if anyone has ever made a comparison to the bending microtones of the shakuhachi, and the soulful hooks of a gospel singer? I have found Christian music to be very moving. There is an Italian composer, Caldara, whose oratorios are deeply moving to me and they are sung in a language I don’t even understand.

One think I really like about sankyoukou is the precision and the discipline it takes me to learn to play it. I like the rigorous work it takes me to get better. It is like a mental workout.

Speaking of that, I had an interesting experience that really made me question some of my own assumptions about the shakuhachi and Japanese music.

I recently met an American guy in my tiny town in rural Japan. He was in town for a festival, and he was sitting on a bridge playing shakuhachi with a plate out for money. He said he had been playing for a year and a half. He made some nice sounds, but it was all free improvisation, very jazzy.

The Japanese folks were amazed to see a foreigner play the shakuhachi and he got a coin now and then. I spoke with him and it turned out he bought the shakuhachi but never had a lesson, and did not know anything at all about it. He noodled around a few hours a day.
I am only a year into playing, so I just told him a bit of what I knew and brought him to my teacher. My teacher is a very nice guy, and he was happy to have a new student. The new guy, it turned out, could not play ro in tune. Partly because he had been playing cross legged instead of seiza, so his flute was sticking up too far, he didn’t know how to hold it.

We studied some very basic exercises, and he did much better than I did when I learned them, but he was clearly at the very beginning of formal training. He was a nice guy, and I was happy to share what I knew with him. Still, it provoked a lot of weird feelings and thoughts.

One thought I had was, what is a shakuhachi player? If you noodle for a year and a half, but can not play sakura, does that count? It doesn’t really matter, I know it is a personal thing, but it was so strange. I have been learning that there is one way, the right way, to play. Then I meet this guy who cant even do scales, but plays a fairly pleasant jazzy kind of stuff on his own. There is no question that his noodling was a heck of a lot nicer to listen to than me struggling my ass off to get through rokudan. Someday I will be able to play that piece nicely, but right now…my six year old son tells me I suck, and he is right.

Anyway, I had all these conflicting thoughts, like that’s not playing! And who am I to judge? I even felt guilty for showing him this entire world of the shakuhachi that he knew nothing about. I was afraid I was bursting his bubble. Anyway, he seemed happy to learn more, and I hope he continues to practice, but this essay made me want to share my thoughts with you guys. I really enjoy the discussion of the music on this forum. Sorry for the long post.


"One thing the bamboo tells you from the start is that it's going to take years and years and years. Better get to work." -- Mujitsu

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#17 2009-08-25 01:38:03

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Wonderful post; every word of it.

Thanks for sharing.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#18 2009-08-25 04:11:56

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Hi Ssakamoto,
     Provocative post. Gifu-ken huh? My Sensei was born and is buried in Gifu. I hope to be paying my respects next April.
      As far as all that mythscape stuff goes( I don't disagree with him) but I think the sound of the shakuhachi stands on its own regardless of it's origin. The first time I heard it I was totally nailed.  Japanese Schmapanese, that was some funky shit in anybody's terms. Sounded like the blues to me.
      As far as music and spirituality are concerned, I think making music is a spiritual act free and independent of any context it may have arrived in or through. People make a lot about a lot of things associated with the music but in the end it's the sound and nothing more. And that's enough.
      The dilemma your American friend poses for you is already stimulating your self analysis. Sometimes the things that make us most uncomfortable have the most to teach us. First of all, the guy is probably not playing any meri notes or any of the other techniques that are uniquely shakuhachi. It's the traditional literature that teaches you the techniques the instrument is capable of and without that background I suspect someone would come out sounding pretty one dimensional. I remember moving to Los Angeles as a professional saxophone player at age 28 and confronting 16 year old kids who were sons and daughters of famous musicians and were light years ahead of where I was at. They had been spoon fed all the right stuff from childhood. How could I compete with that? It was devastating to my ego and had me questioning myself. But I just kept plugging along, working hard and refusing to give up and eventually made myself a space of my own I now feel quite comfortable in. You know, the Tortoise and the Hare.  The point is you have to be careful when comparing yourself to others. Everybody's path is unique and our own. Just find a way to work through whatever walls pop up and know your friend will be hitting his walls too. Along with all the rest of us.
     I hope this gives you some comfort.  I've heard it suggested on this forum that perhaps trying to play well was an ego trip and I guess it could be but the path to being a good player includes instances where you're ego is smashed and handed back to you in a paper bag. In the long run, it makes you stronger. You're not finished til you stop returning the punches.  What's the reward for all this self-flagulation? Every once in a while for a few moments  we sound pretty good to ourselves and that is a joy.
                                        Good luck
                                                Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#19 2009-08-25 04:45:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Jim Thompson wrote:

What's the reward for all this self-flagulation? Every once in a while for a few moments  we sound pretty good to ourselves and that is a joy.
                                        Good luck
                                                Jim

Thanks Jim, you just found the missing link between shakuhachi and golf. Substitute "make a good shot" for "sound pretty good." wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2009-08-25 04:54:09

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

I guess the next step is a Shakuhachi  root end golf club. Jinashi if you insist.   Ken?

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2009-08-25 05:01:29)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#21 2009-08-25 05:22:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Jim Thompson wrote:

I guess the next step is a Shakuhachi  root end golf club. Jinashi if you insist.   Ken?

They used to make them from hickory, so why not? Actually I have seen some bamboo putters, should have bought one.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#22 2009-08-25 07:16:22

ssakamoto
Member
From: Gujo Hachiman, Gifu-ken, Japan
Registered: 2009-02-01
Posts: 43
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Thanks, Jim. I enjoyed your perspective on moving to LA as a saxophone player.

I hope you look me up when you come to Gifu. In fact, if you need a place to crash, you'll be very welcome here. I live in Gujo Hachiman, which is a nice little town. April, as you know, is sakura time, so Gifu will be looking really nice when you come.

Tairaku, the missing link between golf and shakuhachi. That hurt. I'm going to wear some pastel plaid shorts next time I practice.


"One thing the bamboo tells you from the start is that it's going to take years and years and years. Better get to work." -- Mujitsu

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#23 2009-08-25 07:22:38

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Ha, I grew up on a hickory golf club!

ssakamoto wrote:

One thought I had was, what is a shakuhachi player? If you noodle for a year and a half, but can not play sakura, does that count?
[...]
There is no question that his noodling was a heck of a lot nicer to listen to than me struggling my ass off to get through rokudan. Someday I will be able to play that piece nicely, but right now…my six year old son tells me I suck, and he is right.

Hi ssakamoto
For me this brings to mind the 2 worlds or sides of music, from a student's perspective. On the one hand you have music which you can't play as you want to, which may not be "music" yet, i.e. you are still learning the piece, getting your fingers used to the melody, trying to play through the piece without mistakes and remembering what to do where, learning to understand the music of the piece etc. And on the other hand there is music which one can play, which might be comfortable. Of course these 2 worlds are not black and white. Anyway, it sounds like you may be spending much of your time in the difficult world of "learning", whereas your new friend may be spending most of his time in comfortable "playing".

I think both are desirable. I have heard stories on "noodlers" (some people on this forum or elsewhere have mentioned) who may noodle away for years and, as far as advanced music is concerned, make next to no progress with the instrument, remaining in small circles, covering only a tiny area of the space of possibilities of the shakuhachi. On the other hand, they might be very happy! And there purpose might be perfectly fulfilled by that, happily making music.

On the other hand, there are some people who study for years, even decades, continually trying to play in a very advanced way which they are so far unable to do correctly or well, and so are always failing, in a way, to do what they are trying/aiming to do. They keep on practicing, but, whatever they play is still in the "practice" world, trying to correct their mistakes, make the meri notes in tune, make the correct nuances and so on. So they keep trying. We might question how happy they might be to do this, or wonder whether it might be better if they would try to play in a more easy style, rather than trying to imitate a virtuosic genius. However, these people may also be perfectly happy in this activity. Again, I suppose it depends on what each person wants.

What I like for myself, and wish also for my students, is a particular balance between these 2 worlds, or 2 extremes of approach. I want them to always be challenged, to always be striving to play better, or master techniques which they cannot yet play, to be working on music which increases their ability. But at the same time, I want them to be able to play music (some at least) perfectly. For me, this means that the music should be suited to them. Rather than have them play a difficult style poorly, I would rather have them play an easier style well. I don't believe good music has to be difficult. So, even if we might play/be practicing some music which is pushing us, I do think it is good to have some pieces which we can play "perfectly" (which, by the way, may be in a different way than anyone else might play it), that we really feel comfortable with and can enjoy in that way. In this way, that music we feel comfortable with lets us express our musicality freely, without a perpetual struggle with technique. If we were only to practice the hard technical way without those light moments of relaxation, I would fear what might happen to the musical spirit eager to get out.

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#24 2009-08-25 11:10:18

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

ssakamoto wrote:

I hope you look me up when you come to Gifu. In fact, if you need a place to crash, you'll be very welcome here. I live in Gujo Hachiman, which is a nice little town. April, as you know, is sakura time, so Gifu will be looking really nice when you come.

Tairaku, the missing link between golf and shakuhachi. That hurt. I'm going to wear some pastel plaid shorts next time I practice.

Thanks for the invite.  I'll definitely give you a shout.
    And for the ensemble, I'll bring the alpaca sweater and the hotel room key to hang out the back pocket.
    Ya Brian, an elegant jinashi putter. That seems like an idea whose time has come.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#25 2009-08-25 11:13:32

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: A grea thesis to read regarding shakuhachi...

Justin wrote:

I grew up on a hickory golf club!

Have you considered suing your parents? You don't seem particularly scarred.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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