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#1 2010-04-07 09:27:48

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Cashew Laquer

I got few containers of Cashew Lacquer in 3 different colors from a friend that visited in japan, the problem was he couldn't bring the thinner because you cant get it on the plane (explosive i guess...), i used it for one of my flutes few months ago, i didnt use a thinner because i remember people saying that turpentine can thin it but it doesn't cure well, so i used it without a thinner and as a result it cured with a lot of buckling and blobs inside the bore... the smell doesn't bother me much though...

So now im about to give another flute some lacquer in the bore and the question is does anyone knows what can thin Cashew? is it turpentine after all?

Thank you

(P.S. i can just use a clear water based varnish but i want it to have the rich color of the cashew lacquer)

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#2 2010-04-07 10:22:37

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Cashew Laquer

Do you really need to thin it? Normally, buckling happens because the lacquer is applied in too thick a layer. It should be possible to simply not apply it so thickly. Just apply more coats, as you would with real urushi.

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2010-04-07 10:24:58)

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#3 2010-04-07 10:35:24

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

I can try but it means ill have to rub it really hard to make a thin layer sine the cashew comes in a small container and is very slurry and very very thick, from my experince with wood laquers they always a lot thinner

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#4 2010-04-07 11:33:52

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Cashew Laquer

I would suggest testing a bit of the cashew lacquer with ordinary lacquer thinner, which is probably locally available to you.

It is much more volatile than turpentine, leaves little or no odor residue, and it might work very well for the purpose.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2010-04-08 19:41:02

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

I would try, i think cashew is oil based lacquer so i wonder if normal thinner would work, anyway, its 2 bad there is no info on the matter on the web or its all in Japanese...

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#6 2010-04-08 21:16:28

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Cashew Laquer

Itamar Foguel wrote:

I would try, i think cashew is oil based lacquer so i wonder if normal thinner would work, anyway, its 2 bad there is no info on the matter on the web or its all in Japanese...

Thinner will cut nearly anything oil or organic, and it's very easy to try it out on a bit.

End of history.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#7 2010-04-09 00:28:20

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Cashew Laquer

Cashew is about the same consistency as urushi, which is used without dilution. It is all in the technique. You can wrap a small piece of the kind of soft plastic insulation sheeting used to wrap food items like butter at the grocery store around the end of a long dowel (double-sided tape affixes it perfectly). Use this as a brush to spread a thin layer of Cashew inside the bore evenly (it takes practice). Let dry and repeat 20 times or so, sanding lightly between each layer.

Toby

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#8 2010-04-09 00:34:43

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3225
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

Some people have told me that Cashew degrades after about 10-15 years and as such is not as good as urushi for the bore.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#9 2010-04-09 05:28:23

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

Tairaku wrote:

Some people have told me that Cashew degrades after about 10-15 years and as such is not as good as urushi for the bore.

The problem is its the best i got now, im sure i could redo the bore if it will degrade in 15 years...who knows where i would be then, i would surely have more funds then now anyway to get whatever urushi i need.

Toby wrote:

Cashew is about the same consistency as urushi, which is used without dilution. It is all in the technique. You can wrap a small piece of the kind of soft plastic insulation sheeting used to wrap food items like butter at the grocery store around the end of a long dowel (double-sided tape affixes it perfectly). Use this as a brush to spread a thin layer of Cashew inside the bore evenly (it takes practice). Let dry and repeat 20 times or so, sanding lightly between each layer.

Toby

Im not sure about the plastic insulating sheet, i got some pvb sheets, and ordinary nylons and soft warping nylon from the kitchen, any alternative? and why not just use the dowel as is or put a small piece of cloth on the end of the dowel instead?

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#10 2010-04-09 10:13:51

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Cashew Laquer

Toby wrote:

Cashew is about the same consistency as urushi, which is used without dilution. It is all in the technique. You can wrap a small piece of the kind of soft plastic insulation sheeting used to wrap food items like butter at the grocery store around the end of a long dowel (double-sided tape affixes it perfectly). Use this as a brush to spread a thin layer of Cashew inside the bore evenly (it takes practice). Let dry and repeat 20 times or so, sanding lightly between each layer.

Toby

I've never seen it used to wrap butter (Toby, are you OK  smile), but Toby may be referring to the thin closed-cell foam sheets used in packaging some fresh groceries; the flexible white stuff, not the stiff stuff egg cartons and take-away containers are made of (don't know what they do in Israel).

What he's suggesting, I think, is that you make a sort of extra-large 'Q-Tip' with a long dowel, wrapping a piece of the stuff around one end of it. Monty Levenson uses a similar approach fastening a chunk of closed cell foam to the end of a dowel. He's using a much thinner coating, however, but I think (if I'm right, here) that Toby's idea is a good one.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#11 2010-04-09 13:06:16

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

I had wondered about how to laquer a flute once. The discussion is in this thread http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 865#p14865

I'm not sure the video is still on Ken's website, but it was pretty good if you can find it.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#12 2010-04-09 15:56:30

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

radi0gnome wrote:

I had wondered about how to laquer a flute once. The discussion is in this thread http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 865#p14865

I'm not sure the video is still on Ken's website, but it was pretty good if you can find it.

I didnt sad

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#13 2010-04-10 05:09:22

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Cashew Laquer

Closed-cell foam! Ecco, bravo! That's the stuff. The problem with porous materials such as cotton sheeting or brushes (one maker used brushes made from the hair of his daughter--it needs to be soft and fine) is that it soaks up too much liquid by capillary action, and the surface itself is rough, making a smooth and THIN coat very difficult to apply. Also it is a major PITA to clean, and this is especially true if you are using real urushi and have an allergy, although then the pain is usually in a different spot.

If you take a nice long dowel of about 5mm diameter and put a piece of double-sided tape at the top, and then wrap a small square of closed-cell foam around that, you have an excellent brush. The foam is soft enough to spread the lacquer into any small surface variations in the bore (this does not work well for jinashi flutes with a fair amount of interior irregularity, though), but firm enough to allow you to make the coat of a fairly viscous lacquer quite thin by applying some pressure as you move the "brush" through the bore. Because the foam is smooth it does not cause tracks or striations in the coat, which is what happens with a stiff brush or anything rough like cotton cloth or spun cotton.

You can have dowels of different diameters: the closer the OD of the dowel is to the ID of the bore, the smoother the coat will be; or you can just apply the double-sided tape to the foam directly and wrap several layers around the dowel to make the OD thicker.

When you are done, simply toss the foam and wipe the dowel--no need to drop brushes into thinner to soak. Cheap, easy, efficient, what's not to like?

While we're at it, here's another interesting tip. One maker I know forms his bores with an old ski pole. It turns out that the curve of the fattest of ski poles is almost exactly right for the bore of a 1.8. He gets the bore close with a normal garibo, then wraps a belt of rough emery cloth around the ski pole using double sided tape (spiral like a barber pole). He then inserts this and turns it, using it a bit like a reamer, until the form of the bore matches that of the pole.  Of course you have to cut off the bottom of the pole, but keep the rest as is: the handgrip makes it easy to grasp and rotate it inside the bore. There is a fairly long cylindrical section at the top before it starts to taper, and you can just keep rotating and sanding away until the first 8 cm or so from the utaguchi down are cylindrical, after which the taper puts you squarely in the ballpark (after which you can make fine adjustments).

Of course this doesn't work for curved culms, so what I did was to cut a ski pole into sections about 3-4 cm long, fill them with epoxy putty, and drop a nut into the big end of each so that I can screw them onto my threaded garibo pole. This allows me to work on different sections of the bore separately, but with the (approximately) correct curve already built into the "garibo head". I just put a piece of this emery belt (used for some sort of machine sander) on each section with d-s tape, drop into the bore and rotate. Much easier than trying to get the curve generally right with a cylindrical or ball head...

Edosan, they wrap butter in it in Japan, and it didn't exist when I left the States, so that is my only experience with it. Actually it also makes an excellent suspension for woofers whose foam has deteriorated over time. I saved a wonderful pair of old high-end JVC zero-fives with electrostatic tweeters that way ':^}

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2010-04-10 05:20:27)

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#14 2010-04-10 12:02:19

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

radi0gnome wrote:

I had wondered about how to laquer a flute once. The discussion is in this thread http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 865#p14865

I'm not sure the video is still on Ken's website, but it was pretty good if you can find it.

Is this the video Charles? It's informal as I just happened to be on cam while applying a coat. So, it may not be too helpful. 

http://www.justin.tv/mujitsu/b/259436299

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#15 2010-04-14 18:28:47

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

Ok, so i did 2 coats of Cashew to the bore (i used a piece of closed cell nylon plastic sponge thing it was great and thank you for the idea), other then the bad smell (that fades somewhat in time) im very very pleased with the result, the sound now is very bright and clear maybe even a bit 2 much since its a 1.3 at G anyway. only thing that bothers me is the black cashew color stains i made to the top and bottom that sanding didnt take off. i can do more sanding but i think it doesn't worth the chance to hard the tuning or shape, but that thing brings me 2 more questions? are there any other ways other then sanding to remove it? and also what methods do you use to avoid staining? masking tape? sellotape? or maybe even Vaseline?

(tell me if the images dont show)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_84JkG7LVdYc/S8ZBMQp_6PI/AAAAAAAACEM/ZJff7oDsRfA/s640/DSCN0062.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_84JkG7LVdYc/S8ZBM0fJDeI/AAAAAAAACEQ/l2O1EG9Xd8Q/s640/DSCN0057.JPG

Last edited by Itamar Foguel (2010-04-14 18:53:40)

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#16 2010-04-14 20:58:43

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: Cashew Laquer

Mujitsu wrote:

Is this the video Charles? It's informal as I just happened to be on cam while applying a coat. So, it may not be too helpful. 

http://www.justin.tv/mujitsu/b/259436299

Ken, who's that(disc) playing in the background on the video?


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#17 2010-04-15 10:41:18

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

Kerry wrote:

Mujitsu wrote:

Is this the video Charles? It's informal as I just happened to be on cam while applying a coat. So, it may not be too helpful. 

http://www.justin.tv/mujitsu/b/259436299

Ken, who's that(disc) playing in the background on the video?

Kerry,

Could that be Tadashi Tajima?

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#18 2010-04-15 12:30:27

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Cashew Laquer

Itamar, I use a clear nontoxic waterborne polyurethane (suitable for childrens toys) on the parts of the flute where there is no skin. It dries quickly, is very tough and seals the bamboo. It also has very little odor unlike a lot of finishes.

You can use steel wool to buff it to a nice matte finish, or polish it to a gloss. I use it on both ends including the roots before I do the bore. I also use it on the bore of my Jinashi as a sealer if I want to go for a natural look. If you get any colored lacquer on the poly, just quickly wipe it off. It won't soak in.

I hope it helps!


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#19 2010-04-15 12:43:54

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

yes, thank you thats an idea...
but when you do the bore then, do you just wipe off the spilled lacquer from the bore?

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#20 2010-04-15 15:14:13

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Cashew Laquer

What I was saying is that if you are going to use colored lacquer in the bore, to put the clear poly on the root end and utaguchi first, let it dry, and then when you lacquer the bore with a color and accidentally get some elsewhere, the clear poly will keep the colored lacquer from soaking into the bare bamboo.

It's like a clear protective masking, that you can just leave on!


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#21 2010-04-15 20:45:55

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: Cashew Laquer

Mujitsu wrote:

Could that be Tadashi Tajima?

Merci monsieur!


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#22 2010-04-16 08:15:25

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Cashew Laquer

I doubt that the amount of bamboo you would have to take off to get rid of the stains would affect anything.

The makers at Meijiro said that Cashew is totally OK for the bore, but a bit too weak for the joint.

Last edited by Toby (2010-04-16 08:17:10)

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#23 2010-04-18 13:12:01

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

I left it with 2 layers for now since it seems suffice, and its not a Jinuri anyway.

Toby was right i was able to get rid of the stains with some more sanding, next flute i gona try another method of doing an inlay that seems easier so the shape will be better, but over all im very happy with this flute, im advancing from flute to flute and both tuning and aesthetics gets better (this one got a good tuning now). i do only Nobokan for the time being so i don't worry about join lacquer yet.

Then again, thank you all that helped and keeps helping and advising me here smile

(if you cant see the pictures here is the link to the album)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3 … 1129246998

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs514.snc3/26994_1396504229173_1129246998_31176254_8063298_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs494.snc3/26994_1396504349176_1129246998_31176256_4750283_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs494.ash1/26994_1396507789262_1129246998_31176261_7717717_n.jpg

Last edited by Itamar Foguel (2010-04-18 13:16:28)

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#24 2010-05-09 09:23:02

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

Toby wrote:

I doubt that the amount of bamboo you would have to take off to get rid of the stains would affect anything.

The makers at Meijiro said that Cashew is totally OK for the bore, but a bit too weak for the joint.

So what do you think could be a good available alternative to Urushi for the joint?

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#25 2010-05-09 09:38:19

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3225
Website

Re: Cashew Laquer

Itamar Foguel wrote:

Toby wrote:

I doubt that the amount of bamboo you would have to take off to get rid of the stains would affect anything.

The makers at Meijiro said that Cashew is totally OK for the bore, but a bit too weak for the joint.

So what do you think could be a good available alternative to Urushi for the joint?

The joint is usually a problem, so I put Scotch Tape there. That's a good DIY solution. wink

This is why nobe is superior.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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