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#26 2010-09-22 05:16:02

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

HarryHansen wrote:

I know who the collector is I bought it from. He came highly recommended as being a trustworthy dealer that sells authentic, quality flutes.. That's all I need.. smile

How can this collector or you tell if a cracked hunk of Edo wood is "authentic, quality"? I don't get it. He's selling a cracked, unplayable item but you trust his judgement? I can't tell you what a cracked flute is going to sound like, who is this miracle dealer? Have fun buying and restoring questionable stuff but don't kid yourself or other people about the process. roll

radi0gnome wrote:

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

I bought an "Edo" shakuhachi from Ebay and it was a counterfeit. I have also bought several that were simply "crap". Just being "Edo" doesn't mean much.

Were the simply "crap" ones still 250 years old?

Brian, I remember you sold a shakuahchi a few years ago that you called an "el cheapo Edo". What amazed me about it was that it had no cracks. Even if it wasn't the best player (I think you said it was good, not great), I sort of think bamboo that lasts that long deserves some study. You can hardly find any Western wood flutes that old without cracks. 

Also, I find it intriguing that a lot of the instruments that end up in our hands now may outlive us by a couple years... or more.

Some of the crappiest flutes I've played were "Edo".

The ones I sold as El Cheapo Edo flutes were chosen by me in the flesh so they were OK. Not Ebay crap. Not the best flutes but still with good musical properties and some charm.

Toby wrote:

Depends on the wood. Boxwood flutes warp but hardly ever crack. Anyway, what can you study about a piece of bamboo, cracked or not? Madake has not evolved or significantly changed in the past 100,000 years or so...

The old bamboo is different (or has become different over time) than the new stuff. I've noticed at least 4 different sets of bamboo which is correlate to different age periods of the flutes I've played. Some of the Edo flutes have a "petrified wood" quality I haven't seen in new flutes.


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#27 2010-09-22 17:39:16

HarryHansen
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

How can this collector or you tell if a cracked hunk of Edo wood is "authentic, quality"? I don't get it. He's selling a cracked, unplayable item but you trust his judgement? I can't tell you what a cracked flute is going to sound like, who is this miracle dealer? Have fun buying and restoring questionable stuff but don't kid yourself or other people about the process. roll.

I don't know.. how can you tell if ANY "Edo" flute is authentic?.. I didn't realize being cracked and unplayable automatically disqualifies a flute from being 200 years old. roll
I'm not trying to "kid" anyone.. just trying to get some advice here. Are you always this cynical?

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

The ones I sold as El Cheapo Edo flutes were chosen by me in the flesh so they were OK. Not Ebay crap. Not the best flutes but still with good musical properties and some charm.

Once again, my mistake.. I didn't know about the "magic ebay curse", which renders anything sold there as non-authentic junk. Does that make all of Monty's flutes on ebay junk?

Last edited by HarryHansen (2010-09-22 17:40:18)

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#28 2010-09-22 18:35:53

radi0gnome
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

HarryHansen wrote:

I didn't know about the "magic ebay curse", which renders anything sold there as non-authentic junk.

You've got to admit there's a very low great/junk ratio. Especially when dealing with the Japanese dealers that say they don't know how to play and can't answer any questions about playability. Of course, that's where some of the more interesting instruments come from, even though they are less than good players even after restoration.

Unless there's a lot of trickery going on, there's an awful lot of crappy playing old shakuhachi that apparently have been very well-played, as evidenced by finger-hole wear. This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, without any consensus why. Were these considered awesome instruments and played a lot back when they were first made? Or was it a flute passed around among students, getting a lot of low-level play? Or, did some of the owners just have dirty hands? If you can find a way to rule out the last two proposed reasons, you've got a real perceptual problem to deal with. Because apparently advanced players at one time liked the sound of an instrument that by modern standards is crap. That's a very intriguing curiosity. 

As far as authenticity, there's probably some construction styles that would give an indication to the age of the instrument. Since you talked to the guy you got it from and he sounded coherent and knowledgeable, and he had references, that's obviously a plus. Slap some topical bindings on it to get it playing. There's plenty of time to have it assessed and restored in a manner aesthetically respectful to its age.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#29 2010-09-22 22:17:03

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

radi0gnome wrote:

You've got to admit there's a very low great/junk ratio. Especially when dealing with the Japanese dealers that say they don't know how to play and can't answer any questions about playability.

Rule #1: Never, ever buy a shakuhachi from someone who says that they will not accept returns.

Rule #2: Never buy a shakuhachi from someone who says they don't know how to play and won't be accountable for an instrument if it is unplayable or un-repairable.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#30 2010-09-22 22:18:04

HarryHansen
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Posts: 245
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

radi0gnome wrote:

HarryHansen wrote:

I didn't know about the "magic ebay curse", which renders anything sold there as non-authentic junk.

You've got to admit there's a very low great/junk ratio. Especially when dealing with the Japanese dealers that say they don't know how to play and can't answer any questions about playability. Of course, that's where some of the more interesting instruments come from, even though they are less than good players even after restoration.

Unless there's a lot of trickery going on, there's an awful lot of crappy playing old shakuhachi that apparently have been very well-played, as evidenced by finger-hole wear. This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, without any consensus why. Were these considered awesome instruments and played a lot back when they were first made? Or was it a flute passed around among students, getting a lot of low-level play? Or, did some of the owners just have dirty hands? If you can find a way to rule out the last two proposed reasons, you've got a real perceptual problem to deal with. Because apparently advanced players at one time liked the sound of an instrument that by modern standards is crap. That's a very intriguing curiosity. 

As far as authenticity, there's probably some construction styles that would give an indication to the age of the instrument. Since you talked to the guy you got it from and he sounded coherent and knowledgeable, and he had references, that's obviously a plus. Slap some topical bindings on it to get it playing. There's plenty of time to have it assessed and restored in a manner aesthetically respectful to its age.

Of course, I agree with you 100%. That's why I would not spend a lot of money on anything from ebay, but there's a chance of finding a piece of gold, in the dirt.

I'm just getting tired of hearing the blanket statement, that "anything found on ebay is crap". It's getting old.

Regarding my "Edo" flute, I would not have bought it, had the person selling it not been referred to me. Even as it was, I was not willing to pay much for it. Luckily I got it for well under my max bid price.

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#31 2010-09-22 22:46:34

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
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From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
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Posts: 612
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

HarryHansen wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

HarryHansen wrote:

I didn't know about the "magic ebay curse", which renders anything sold there as non-authentic junk.

You've got to admit there's a very low great/junk ratio. Especially when dealing with the Japanese dealers that say they don't know how to play and can't answer any questions about playability. Of course, that's where some of the more interesting instruments come from, even though they are less than good players even after restoration.

Unless there's a lot of trickery going on, there's an awful lot of crappy playing old shakuhachi that apparently have been very well-played, as evidenced by finger-hole wear. This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, without any consensus why. Were these considered awesome instruments and played a lot back when they were first made? Or was it a flute passed around among students, getting a lot of low-level play? Or, did some of the owners just have dirty hands? If you can find a way to rule out the last two proposed reasons, you've got a real perceptual problem to deal with. Because apparently advanced players at one time liked the sound of an instrument that by modern standards is crap. That's a very intriguing curiosity. 

As far as authenticity, there's probably some construction styles that would give an indication to the age of the instrument. Since you talked to the guy you got it from and he sounded coherent and knowledgeable, and he had references, that's obviously a plus. Slap some topical bindings on it to get it playing. There's plenty of time to have it assessed and restored in a manner aesthetically respectful to its age.

Of course, I agree with you 100%. That's why I would not spend a lot of money on anything from ebay, but there's a chance of finding a piece of gold, in the dirt.

I'm just getting tired of hearing the blanket statement, that "anything found on ebay is crap". It's getting old.

Regarding my "Edo" flute, I would not have bought it, had the person selling it not been referred to me. Even as it was, I was not willing to pay much for it. Luckily I got it for well under my max bid price.

Hi Harry.

What you are saying does make sense when looked at superficially. Put it this way you have a bunch of REAL antiques dealer in Japan that know what to look for in flutes they buy them and get them tested by either themselves if they are players or someone that does and it will then be sold at the right price. The same thing goes with swords. This is all about money so dealers will not take any chance to let go of a real flute, sword scrolls etc before it gets looked at by a pro since they risk to loose a lot of money. So frankly the people selling thoe flutes on ebay are selling the leftovers so the real chance of finding a jewel is pretty slim if not just impossible

I would not buy any cracked , bent , dusty flutes on ebay myself. I only would buy a flute on ebay if I truly knew this came from a known maker.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#32 2010-09-22 22:47:02

Toby
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From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Help with making an old flute work

Justin knows quite a bit about Edo flutes. Apparently there is a characteristic hole spacing on older flutes, however you'd have to talk to Justin to learn more. When I was frequenting the Tokyo antique fairs and markets, I often used to run across old flutes, sometimes a number of them together, that certainly looked like they could be from Edo. Most were total crap, at least insofar as playability goes. A Ford Model T is interesting indeed, but not particularly useful for transportation compared to modern autos.

Toby

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#33 2010-09-23 03:38:05

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Just to jump in and say something about the ebay flutes...

recently I bought 2 Flutes from Ebay very very cheap...the seller does not accept returns and does not play Shakuhachi... one was a pretty old Tozan flute that plays quite well with Hanko (Kokuzen) the other one was a old Gyokusui (the son)....both where cracked and not playable....

So I dont think every flute on ebay is bad, like Gishin sayed you just have to keep your eye open and know what you are buying...


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#34 2010-09-23 09:38:54

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Christopher B. wrote:

... you just have to keep your eye open and know what you are buying...

And you'll be surprised down the line about about discovering new things about what you _think you saw_ and what you _thought_ you were buying, But if you have money to burn then whatever surprises you won't hurt as much.  Spend away.

In general most Western folks don't know enough about what they purchase in this realm. Playing a shakuhachi a few years with a half decent teacher doesn't make you an instant expert. Being a martial artist doesn't make you an expert.

Speaking Japanese helps but you can get sold a "bill of goods" in Japanese as easy as you can in your native tongue.  Shysters  abound in every culture.

I can't tell you how many people will be more than happy to sell you a two thousand dollar flute for six thousand dollars. And you can wind up mesmerized by the maker or ERA mystique for months/years before a good teacher gets you to realize that all you've been doing is wasting time and developing a host of sloppy and destructive habits.

Makers names don't matter any where near as most people believe. Most flutes are crafted for certain types of people by established, known craftsmen who give access to dozens, sometimes hundreds of flutes to choose from. If you have real access --and most of us don't here in the US or Europe -- then best advice is listen to your teacher and purchase modestly from makers your teachers recommend.

The idea is to have a flute that you play well and that plays well for you, not necessarily an easy flute to play or that it has a desirable hanko. A flute that will allow you to over time improve your tone, not just one that sounds good at the time

The flute is not the issue. Your music is.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#35 2010-09-23 09:58:12

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Chris Moran wrote:

And you'll be surprised down the line about about discovering new things about what you _think you saw_ and what you _thought_ you were buying, But if you have money to burn then whatever surprises you won't hurt as much.  Spend away.

In general most Western folks don't know enough about what they purchase in this realm. Playing a shakuhachi a few years with a half decent teacher doesn't make you an instant expert. Being a martial artist doesn't make you an expert.

Speaking Japanese helps but you can get sold a "bill of goods" in Japanese as easy as you can in your native tongue.  Shysters  abound in every culture.

I can't tell you how many people will be more than happy to sell you a two thousand dollar flute for six thousand dollars. And you can wind up mesmerized by the maker or ERA mystique for months/years before a good teacher gets you to realize that all you've been doing is wasting time and developing a host of sloppy and destructive habits.

Makers names don't matter any where near as most people believe. Most flutes are crafted for certain types of people by established, known craftsmen who give access to dozens, sometimes hundreds of flutes to choose from. If you have real access --and most of us don't here in the US or Europe -- then best advice is listen to your teacher and purchase modestly from makers your teachers recommend.

The idea is to have a flute that you play well and that plays well for you, not necessarily an easy flute to play or that it has a desirable hanko. A flute that will allow you to over time improve your tone, not just one that sounds good at the time

The flute is not the issue. Your music is.

Well sayed Chris...

I dont have that much expierence and I am not an expert (what ever makes you an expert) but I think the Gyokusui I bought for xxx€ is fine, also the "old" Tozan flute is fine for my needs. As long as I can play nearly in pitch and all the fingerings work I know for now, everything should be fine. I also have teachers or people that evaluate my flutes and they have much more expierence then me.

I totaly agree with you in some terms a Hanko does not mean all but I think there are a few makers out there that are well respected and you can trusth in there craftmanship just by seeing the hanko. The other thing is that a flute have to fit you and the style you play.

I dont have much money to spend (I really dont have!) so I really take care about what I buying...If it is crap its "ok" cause I dont wasted to much money for the "crap".

Anyways I think we can spend 1000 of hours about talking what is a good flute what not, I think nearly every well made flute has something that is worth to play it or something special.

Best,

Ps.: I think we should get back to topic...

Last edited by Christopher B. (2010-09-23 10:15:45)


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#36 2010-09-23 13:33:08

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Chris Moran wrote:

The flute is not the issue. Your music is.

I was pretty sure it was the flute, I'll have to check on that smile

I think some of the "problem" of students wanting to experiment with Ebay flutes is that they all have different strong and weak points and it's kind of fun for beginners to explore those. Tairaku has mentioned in the past that all you need is a good 1.8 and a good long jinashi, and that all the rest is just for fun. I agree almost 100% ("almost" because a good 7 hole flute is essential to me too). Once I got a hold of a decent 1.8 and a Taimu, most of my Ebay flutes somehow transformed themselves into "junk" that aren't getting played. It's easy to understand that perceptions change with time and experience, what's hard to decipher is if the reality behind the perceptions are also changing. Those junky flutes sure seemed awesome when I first got them playing...


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#37 2010-09-23 14:42:26

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Whatsoever guys,

I buyed a Gyokusui 1.8 on Ebay and a older Tozan flute...both flutes are not crap.....So I dont think we can generalize "This is crap", "This is not"..."You have to", "You dont have to"....

End of History....

Last edited by Christopher B. (2010-09-23 15:37:42)


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#38 2010-09-23 14:54:31

Taldaran
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From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Help with making an old flute work

I also bought a Seikado from ebay that my teacher checked out and said sounded a bit stuffy and not as loud as it could be, but played in tune and was a good flute.

He also checked out the various flutes I brought on my initial lesson, and the one he chose for me to use in my lessons and practice as far as balance, tuning and tone color was my Maple Zen-On. It's actually a nice flute!


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#39 2010-09-23 15:37:13

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

I agree, Horst, sorry ... I mean, Christopher! 

But there are always foot notes in history:

You were fortunate to find two flutes that sound, from your reportage, to be acceptable, if not good. Maybe even great.

It happens. But I speak from this experience with this obsessive preoccupation in finding a "hidden treasure" on eBay. I know what construction markers and proportion makers to look for. There have been a few minor hits, but only a single and and double and well, I had to bunt a couple of times.

In the very best of cases from the antique dealers what I see are a lot of mediocre flutes that will stunt an aspirant more than it will help him or her. Crack through to the bore instruments are common--even ones with great maker hanko should be avoided -- I believe.  A lot of bending goes on in shakuhachi making and the bamboo that tries to recover shape memory and re-bend itself can violently crack, twist and warp the original bore work of the maker. Still you can find exceptions.

Flutes with worm holes don't indicate age, they indicate neglect and being stored in the proximity of very hungry worms. Once a worm hits the bore they cannot be reliably repaired.

A lot of "Edo" flutes may be that old. I've resold (at very low prices) a couple of good ones that I liberally labeled "Edo-Meiji" that I found that were characteristically narrow bore and very nice sweet-sounding flutes, but certainly not of the caliber of John Singer's rare Edo period instruments, most of which were not narrow bore and therefore uncommon. Most true "Edo" flutes you can buy are cast-offs and picked through crumbs that have been sitting in Japanese curio shops for 40 years gathering dust. But there always are exceptions.

You can spend a lot of money over time on a lot of mediocre instruments, instead of doing the infinitely more wise (and more difficult) thing of saving shekels and getting yourself into a situation where you can try several flutes at once with a good teacher present to assist you in making the best decision. (I'm speaking here about 1.8s, jinashi or jiari that are suitable for lessons.)

You should be able to find an excellent pre-owned flute that fits you for under $1500 (up to $100,000 for provenance and wow factor, but disregarding status symbols, $1500 should do you for pre-owned — 30% to 50% off if it has sizeable crack repairs.). A capable new flute shouldn't run you much more than $2000, up to 3K if it's really pretty to look at (or the Yen has tanked) and $4K and $5K or more  for added wow-factor. But the main thing is to find a flute that is constructed well (plays all the notes including the secret ones) and that fits your mouth and hands. If you just happen to be lucky enough to find that on eBay, then I'm very happy for you. Honestly.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#40 2010-09-23 15:50:58

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
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Posts: 235
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

As I sayed I agree with you Chris...

I am not in the happy position to save much money or try alot of flutes...its just "make the best out of what you get" and I totaly understand what you are talking about but I dont think we can generalize that stuff (what happends alot in this forum recently in most cases)...

I am not looking for or collecting old "edo" flutes I was just looking for a payable 1.8 that is good for the next few years and fit my studys...

I dont think there is "ultimative truth", whatever in playing , the best style,  the best maker or whatsoever...like most of the arts...

Many Advices are good and very helpful.

There is a big cultural History that should be respected by most of the players and beginners but I hate thoose generalation stuff and its hard for a beginner like me to feel familar with this situation in the community...I think besides the true facts there is alot "here and there" and alot of stuff that cant be really proved...

Best,

Last edited by Christopher B. (2010-09-23 16:11:51)


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#41 2010-09-23 16:27:05

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
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From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
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Posts: 612
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

What baffles me in the end is WHY a beginner cannot just take the advice of people that have played for X amount of years and owned proper flutes.

Why do they need to discuss endlessly the same thing trying to excuse and justify their obstination to purchase cheap flutes in the hopes of getting a good one OR  when told it can still not be a very god one say I don't care because I feel this is a good flute anyway.

This is all futile if those beginners really respect and want to learn Shakuhachi sincerely. When you really want to learn you save $ then get the right instrument. When I was still teaching Iaido if any student brought a crappy sword purchased without my advice he had to go back to using a wood sword right away. What is it with beginners and Shakuhachi not understanding that you get what you pay for.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#42 2010-09-23 16:34:29

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk wrote:

What baffles me in the end is WHY a beginner cannot just take the advice of people that have played for X amount of years and owned proper flutes.

Why do they need to discuss endlessly the same thing trying to excuse and justify their obstination to purchase cheap flutes in the hopes of getting a good one OR  when told it can still not be a very god one say I don't care because I feel this is a good flute anyway.

This is all futile if those beginners really respect and want to learn Shakuhachi sincerely. When you really want to learn you save $ then get the right instrument. When I was still teaching Iaido if any student brought a crappy sword purchased without my advice he had to go back to using a wood sword right away. What is it with beginners and Shakuhachi not understanding that you get what you pay for.

Also well sayed...

I dont started to discuss anything here...As you sayed it is always the same cup of tea and everybody starts to jump in and make advices. I just started to say "We can not generalize that all flutes on Ebay are crap!"

So for me "All flutes from ebay are crap" is just a wrong advice for beginner who can not spend 2k for flutes...

I have nearly every of the flutes I own evaluated by a teacher or a maker and as I can say they are not crap, maybe they are just "good" but if I can grow and study with them for the next few years I am fine with them.

I dont think they are the best or good they just fit my needs and my teacher or a maker telled me that I can study with them. Thats all and I trust them (as you sayed)...

To put the cup together I think we can say "Be careful by buying flutes from ebay and trust your teacher!"

Best,

Last edited by Christopher B. (2010-09-23 17:40:46)


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#43 2010-09-23 19:59:10

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Help with making an old flute work

Slow down guys. Nobody said "all flutes on Ebay are crap". Repeating a misquotation or taking a statement out of context does not make it a valid point to react to.

Sure there are some good flutes on Ebay. I've probably bought about 20 flutes there. I can afford to "gamble" on these things and have excellent knowledge of what to look for in a flute. I have probably broken even on these things financially because I bought a few for $500 and was able to sell or trade them for a $2000-3000 value. Then there was a flute I knew because a friend had originally bought it for $4500 (too much) and then it changed hands a few times and I ended up buying it for $700 on Ebay because someone had one of those "I'm quitting" crises. And I bought a very rare old 3.2 Myoan for $1200 and I think it's worth about $1200 so I'm happy with that. The rest were either crap or there were a few that were worth the $500 I paid but in the end nobody is happy playing a $500 flute.

So even someone with a major collection and knowledge might be lucky to "break even" playing the Ebay game.

This does not in any way take into account legitimate makers like Ken, Perry or Monty who sell flutes on Ebay. There you are dealing with a known quantity and get what you expect.

My points to Harry (which in any case are not meant for Harry specifically, because this is a forum is to be read and digested by many readers, most of whom are beginners) are as follows:

1. Shakuhachi are instruments which are designed to play certain kinds of Japanese music. If you do not know how to play those forms of Japanese music it is impossible for you to judge the flutes.

Even if you are a good player it is impossible to judge whether a flute plays styles you have not studied. For example I frequently abstain from giving Michael Chikuzen Gould my expert opinion on whether or not a flute plays "Dokyoku" well because I have not mastered all those techniques myself. I can tell him how it plays Kinko or Myoan.

If you end up buying flutes which are not good (because you have judged them without any knowledge) and play them a lot without studying shakuhachi music with a qualified teacher you are very likely to end up developing your own bad techniques and style. Then if you ever decide to study properly you will have a lot of bad self taught ideas to unlearn.

Now on the subject of Edo flutes. If all you care about is having a flute that is Edo sure you can find an old flute. I personally don't understand the appeal of playing a bad flute just because it is Edo. I don't like playing bad flutes of any era myself. It seems to me that playing a good Edo flute would be something you might want to do once you know how to play some kind of honkyoku which would sound good on a decent Edo flute. But once again if you don't know the music and can't tell whether the flute plays the music you're pissing into the wind.

As far as "rehabilitating" old flutes found on Ebay or elsewhere, I am in favor of it. I like for example what Perry does with some of those beat up flutes. Taking a neglected flute and making it playable to a modern player is good karma. But only if the flute would be a goner otherwise. This is different in my mind from taking a good or great flute and modifying it to your own personal preference which is a topic we discussed recently. I prefer to leave the flute as the great maker intended. But for beginners who don't play Japanese music rehabilitating these old flutes is a question of whether you are bringing a degraded flute back to life rather than leaving it unplayable, or alternatively taking the risk that you are defacing something that might be better left to the professionals. Also whether the expense and effort are worth it to begin with. Because buying a $100 flute and spending 20 hours fixing it up and ending up with a worthless flute is still a waste of $100 and 20 man hours.

People do not need to get emotional or hysterical about the stuff I'm saying here. It's not a personal dig at anybody. Shakuhachi collecting is an expensive hobby, even in the "El Cheapo" range and I'm trying to impart some knowledge based upon experience which might save some (especially beginners) $$$$$$$ and heartbreak down the road. I've bought a lot of questionable flutes speculatively or they've ended up in my hands as "trade-ups" from customers and they just sit around. They're not worth playing. Time is our most valuable commodity. Better to find the right flute and play that.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#44 2010-09-23 20:46:26

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Help with making an old flute work

Thank you, Tairaku,  Well spoken,  Amen!


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#45 2010-09-23 23:33:34

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Help with making an old flute work

I have the good fortune of living in Japan, and I often run across flutes in second-hand shops and junk shops and antique shops and in flea markets and antique exhibitions. The fortune is in the fact that I can try them. With shakuhachi, it is a major truism that you cannot tell a book by its cover. I have picked up and tried many a beautiful-looking instrument that was real crap, and very few that were good players.

I don't know why people think that any old instrument stands a good chance of being good. There have been thousand of makers churning out instruments for hundreds of years. Old shakuhachi are hardly rare.

Consider guitars. You find beat-up old acoustic guitars by the thousands; how many do you think are of Martin or Gibson quality? They all look pretty much the same, but that is where it ends. And in fact, since guitar specs are pretty well set, you stand a much better chance of getting a decent, if pedestrian, old guitar than getting a decent old shakuhachi, where small variations in the bore can spell disaster.

Generally I would say that only about 5% of the flutes that I find are even worthy of real consideration. Recently I saw a gorgeous old 1.6 in a beautiful wooden box...one of those instruments that by the look makes you go WOW! Quite old by the look of it, but beautifully taken care of, looked to be of fine craftsmanship, and well worn around the finger holes. It was about $900, which is high for me, but I had to try it. It played horribly. Completely out of tune, thin sound, bad response on a number of notes, nothing decent in the dai-kan.

On the other hand, I once was trolling in some souvenir shops around the Megane Bashi in Nagasaki. I noted a few antiques in the back of the shop that sold mostly tourist junk. And there was a shakuhachi! I asked to try it. It was about $300, the going price of a normal used flute in such places. It was OK, but nothing to write home about. I handed it back and was about to leave when the shopkeeper said, "of course, if you are looking for a good one, there is that..." and pointed to a flute way in the back of the case. It was a looker, with a very unique root end:  http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr78 … ot_end.jpg

I tried to play it, and a small crack prevented me from playing down into the otsu, but I could immediately tell that this was something special. He wanted $350, and I rushed out to a bank because such shops do not take credit cards. I had it repaired by Yasuhiro, and it is by far my favorite 1.8. The maker is "Chikudo", and the Meijiro folks looked him up but he is not listed in their shakuhachi-makers bible. Whoever he was, hats off to him. He beats my Shinzen and all my other 1.8's

One time I was at a market in my local shrine and came across an absolutely gorgeous 1.6, with a root end to die for. Since there was a big crack through the top joint, I got it for $60, thinking I would make the repair a Meijiro project (when I was taking classes there). When I brought it in Mr. Miura said, "Toby, this looks like a really great flute, and I suggest you let us repair it." With a small bit of tuning adjustment it turned into an excellent player.

But then there are the other 200 flutes I tried, with prices ranging from $100-1500, that were never going to make the grade, and this is especially true of the older flutes, which were usually played as solo instruments and were not made with ensemble playing (or intonation) in mind.

Enough rambling on...

Toby

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#46 2010-09-24 03:38:26

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: Help with making an old flute work

Thanks Brian for making this excellent explainations.

Sorry for misqouting some things but if you read the earlyer posts it sounds like all ebay flutes are crap and thats not true.

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

because this is a forum is to be read and digested by many readers, most of whom are beginners

Thas is what going on my nervs in most recent posts and I think we should have clear advices and explainations. So many things can be missunderstand here on the forum. I think if I joined the forum earlyer I would never have started playing shakuhachi. Its difficult enough and there are lot things to learn about History different Schools, notation etc. there is no need for more...

I am a beginner and just can tell you my point of view and I try to keep out and leave the "great" stuff to the proffesionals to dont write wrong things.

Last edited by Christopher B. (2010-09-24 03:49:54)


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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#47 2010-09-24 04:08:29

HarryHansen
Member
From: Hawaii
Registered: 2010-04-12
Posts: 245
Website

Re: Help with making an old flute work

Toby, Brian, thanks for your input. You both gave really good explanations, and may even have taught my stubborn a$$ a thing or two smile

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#48 2010-09-24 14:02:57

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Help with making an old flute work

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk wrote:

What baffles me in the end is WHY a beginner cannot just take the advice of people that have played for X amount of years and owned proper flutes.

I also wonder why I didn't follow my parents and most of my elders advice to never do anything risky but fun and to just study real hard instead. Turns out they were mostly right, but you couldn't have convinced me then.

It also doesn't help that from most appearances these instruments are simply chunks of bamboo with holes drilled in them. For some of us it takes some time for the mystery to disappear and appreciate the workmanship that goes into a good shakuhachi.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#49 2010-09-25 03:01:12

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Help with making an old flute work

HarryHansen wrote:

Toby, Brian, thanks for your input. You both gave really good explanations, and may even have taught my stubborn a$$ a thing or two smile

Dude, there is nothing wrong with buying old flutes! I've always loved old things, just because they are old. I bought a four-hundred-year-old tea bowl for my wife because I thought it was just so cool that the thing had seen so much. My wife, who is into tea ceremony, took one look and said, "Thanks, I guess we can make it into an ashtray.
:-/

The main point is to be careful and not to overpay just because some old hunk of bamboo with holes is 150 years old. Japan is full of old stuff. The bowl I use for my salad is 200 years old, and it cost about the same as a decent new bowl ($25).

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2010-09-25 03:02:13)

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#50 2010-09-25 08:18:39

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Help with making an old flute work

Hello all, Sorry to jump in late here. Been working on some shows.

I get an average of 10 flutes sent to me per month from eBay auctions (i have perosnally only purchased one flute through eBay and that was done as a favor for an international friend who did not have paypal. And, this was done only after after some serious inquiry). Most of these flutes will play in original condition after the repairs. As Chris mentioned, only ones with worms holes may not play again.

Most of the old shakuhachi found on eBay are rarely the kind made for sankyokyu, or even honkyoku as we understand it, so they should be judged with a wider criteria. I simply look at these old flutes as unique cultural artifacts of the previous century. Some made by true monks, others by layman. Either way I find these old flutes interesting to say the least. If it came down to it, like Toby's old salad bowl, I would rather recycle an old one purchased from a garage sale than buy a new synthetic one from Walmart smile

Have a great day!

(BTW, any New York City folks looking for something fun to do on this beautiful day (Sat, Sept 25)?
Come down to the FAB Festival (East 4th St Block party). I'm performing on two stages, outdoors on guitar with InMixed Company (Modern dance, 3:15pm) and indoors with Rick Ebihara on a new Shakuhachi Puppetry work-in-progress (New York Theater Workshop, 2:45pm-3pm).


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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