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Tube of delight!

#1 2010-09-26 23:46:00

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

TONERITE PLAY-IN ENHANCER

The descriptive copy says "the secret is that a small high-g vibration can silently excite the body of an instrument."


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#2 2010-09-27 22:28:41

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Sounds like BS to me. Just put an acoustic pickup on the guitar and attach a small vibrating element to the body that will get the wood vibrating at the same frequencies as the strings. Alas, since the shakuhachi body does not vibrate, and would only interfere with the sound if it did, we need to find a way to "excite" the air column. The only practical way to do anything would be to find a way to reduce losses at the walls, since a full 99% of the energy put into the flute by the player is dissipated as heat and viscous losses at the walls. We have to find a way to make air less sticky,,,

Toby

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#3 2010-09-27 23:02:31

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Toby wrote:

We have to find a way to make air less sticky ...

I wonder if I excited my air column enough, my air would be less sticky.

Perhaps a garrote tied between my neck and my shakuhachi?

brb


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#4 2010-09-27 23:43:59

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Maybe a vacuum cleaner pointed at the bottom of the flute would help the air move...

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#5 2010-09-27 23:54:23

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Toby wrote:

We have to find a way to make air less sticky ...

I wonder if I excited my air column enough, my air would be less sticky.

Perhaps a garrote tied between my neck and my shakuhachi?

brb

I found that it helps to stand in a pyramid shaped structure

Last edited by radi0gnome (2010-09-27 23:54:56)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#6 2010-09-28 00:18:08

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Toby wrote:

Sounds like BS to me. Just put an acoustic pickup on the guitar and attach a small vibrating element to the body that will get the wood vibrating at the same frequencies as the strings. Alas, since the shakuhachi body does not vibrate, and would only interfere with the sound if it did, we need to find a way to "excite" the air column. The only practical way to do anything would be to find a way to reduce losses at the walls, since a full 99% of the energy put into the flute by the player is dissipated as heat and viscous losses at the walls. We have to find a way to make air less sticky,,,

Toby

It's OK, Toby, don't exercise yo'se'f. X cain't he'p it iffin he's plumb ig'nant...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#7 2010-09-28 00:27:31

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

I plugged up the finger-holes of my Yuu with 'blue-tac' putty, wrapped it in my cats' electric blanket, set the temperature to 55 C, waited for it to start warming up and began blowing Ro bukis. Man, this thing is really humming !

K.

Last edited by Karmajampa (2010-09-28 02:49:31)


Kia Kaha !

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#8 2010-09-28 05:07:06

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

edosan wrote:

It's OK, Toby, don't exercise yo'se'f. X cain't he'p it iffin he's plumb ig'nant...

Dammit, ed, I ain't no plumb!


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#9 2010-09-28 07:55:10

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

patiently waiting for the Shakuhachi equivalent of the Moog guitar.....

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#10 2010-09-28 08:46:55

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Toby wrote:

Alas, since the shakuhachi body does not vibrate,

Toby

Again the same issue. Please Toby, admit that it vibrate!!! It cannot do it in a way to influence the sound (as I admited after some ideas exposed in an old topic here on BBQ), but it really do vibrate!!!

I have tested it on many many shakuhachi while in the making process when they're without holes, and they vibrate!!!

Your posts are really cool, but you must admit or make more tests with that!


A big hug man!


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#11 2010-09-28 11:10:37

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

baian wrote:

patiently waiting for the Shakuhachi equivalent of the Moog guitar.....

The The Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI Controller may be what you have to put up with until then. Didn't Masa use this one Jim???

Pretty neat stuff.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#12 2010-09-28 12:11:18

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Indeed he did. But not as or instead of a shakuhachi.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#13 2010-09-28 20:08:38

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

TONERITE PLAY-IN ENHANCER

The descriptive copy says "the secret is that a small high-g vibration can silently excite the body of an instrument."

If you attach it to your head it will make your hair grow!


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#14 2010-09-28 20:29:24

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Jim Thompson wrote:

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

TONERITE PLAY-IN ENHANCER

The descriptive copy says "the secret is that a small high-g vibration can silently excite the body of an instrument."

If you attach it to your head it will make your hair grow!

I'll take three!


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#15 2010-09-29 06:22:15

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

Toby wrote:

Alas, since the shakuhachi body does not vibrate,

Toby

Again the same issue. Please Toby, admit that it vibrate!!! It cannot do it in a way to influence the sound (as I admited after some ideas exposed in an old topic here on BBQ), but it really do vibrate!!!

I have tested it on many many shakuhachi while in the making process when they're without holes, and they vibrate!!!

Your posts are really cool, but you must admit or make more tests with that!


A big hug man!

I have never felt a shakuhachi vibrate, and I have tried very hard. Of course the air under your fingers vibrates, is that what you are feeling? Yes it does vibrate: about 1 micrometer. That's about 1/100 the thickness of a piece of paper. And yes, it doesn't make any difference to the sound.

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#16 2010-09-29 09:33:06

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Toby wrote:

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

Toby wrote:

Alas, since the shakuhachi body does not vibrate,

Toby

Again the same issue. Please Toby, admit that it vibrate!!! It cannot do it in a way to influence the sound (as I admited after some ideas exposed in an old topic here on BBQ), but it really do vibrate!!!

I have tested it on many many shakuhachi while in the making process when they're without holes, and they vibrate!!!

Your posts are really cool, but you must admit or make more tests with that!


A big hug man!

I have never felt a shakuhachi vibrate, and I have tried very hard. Of course the air under your fingers vibrates, is that what you are feeling? Yes it does vibrate: about 1 micrometer. That's about 1/100 the thickness of a piece of paper. And yes, it doesn't make any difference to the sound.

Hi Toby!

Its very weird to hear you saying that you tryed very hard to feel the bamboo vibrating without ever feeling it. You don't look to have caloused hands to this point.

Just an experience that anyone can do having a tuner with a good piezo clip like this in hands:

http://www.google.com.br/imgres?imgurl= … mp;bih=651


We was playing at a friend house and in a few moments I wanted to check my pitch during some passages, and the mic tuner was unusable with all the sounds around, then a friend asked me to try to clip the shakuhachi with a tuner like this, and to my surprise it showed all notes with a good precision... so it capted the vibes in a way that maybe can be used to our friend shakumoog, hehehe?!?



The 1/100 vibration (not constant to all the diferent flutes right? also a question, can two of the most alike flutes, as two cast bore for example, have this  1 micrometer vibes to be a constant? I am not  sure about this flutes that can have bores diferences, even in Jiari and what to say about Jimori and Jinashi?) so nice to feel man! But indeed, it needs sensibility. It's not a vibe to the eyes. Not mine at least.


A big hug!


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#17 2010-10-01 03:39:13

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

The one micrometer figure was obtained using very sensitive accelerometers on a wood-bodied clarinet, but the vibration levels are similar on thick-bodied woodwinds. It's pretty obvious if you think about it: the air pressure at its highest in a flute with open ends is not much, and the bamboo is quite rigid. Basically the vibration of a thick-bodied woodwind adds about 1/10,000 the energy of the total radiated sound. This is a level about -40 dB, which is imperceptible. Think about standing two meters away from your friend and talking very quietly while a loud motorcycle is revving its engine between you. That is the scale we are talking about. Yes a good contact mic can pick it up, but that is beside the point.

Again I ask you: are you not feeling the air under your fingers and confusing that with vibration of the body, or confabulating when you play a holeless flute? Try having someone else play the flute--touch the body with you fingers (not the holes) with your eyes closed, while listening to loud music through closed-back headphones. Can you really feel when the flute is being played?

Last edited by Toby (2010-10-01 03:52:37)

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#18 2010-10-01 10:45:16

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Toby wrote:

Basically the vibration of a thick-bodied woodwind adds about 1/10,000 the energy of the total radiated sound. This is a level about -40 dB, which is imperceptible. Think about standing two meters away from your friend and talking very quietly while a loud motorcycle is revving its engine between you. That is the scale we are talking about.

This is beside here since its about ear perception I think, not hand touch feel, and I already accepted what you said about this small amount of energy that do not influence the sound. Your motorcycle example was cool anyway...


Toby wrote:

Yes a good contact mic can pick it up, but that is beside the point

Why this is beside this point? How much energy a contact mic need to measure the notes?

Toby wrote:

Again I ask you: are you not feeling the air under your fingers and confusing that with vibration of the body, or confabulating when you play a holeless flute? Try having someone else play the flute--touch the body with you fingers (not the holes) with your eyes closed, while listening to loud music through closed-back headphones. Can you really feel when the flute is being played?

The vibration I feel is not from holes... I use to make shakuhachi here too, and I can fell the vibes  in a bamboo still without holes, more in some locations through the lenght, less in others...

Unfortunelly I don't have any friend here in my town who can take a decent sound on shakuhachi, but a good friend will came to a visit around oct/19. I will make the test you sugested, with closed back earphones with loud music na dcome back with the results...


It can be easier to feel if you don't use just your finger, but hold with the entire hand, embracing the flute, and touching the body of the flute with palm of the hand too. One can close holes with tape and hold in diferent part of flute body (distant of the holes too) and notice where it vibes more or less.  In a Ro Otsu situation, its easy to feel the root vibrating in your hand. In a flute yet without holes, the middle of flute has a good vibe too.

Anyway, I will wait my friend to come and make the test you sugest.

By now, with our conversation, I have been quite crazy about this vibe I feel. Does nobody else feel it? I am feeling like a medium who hear/feel  spirits and people that do not hear says him "you don't hear/fell anything..."

Last edited by Musgo da Pedra (2010-10-01 11:04:40)


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#19 2010-10-01 11:15:14

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Henrique,

Just stop smokin' that Whacky Tabacky, and you'll be fine.... smile

Meantime: a BIG hug, from Eddy.

Last edited by edosan (2010-10-01 11:15:53)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#20 2010-10-01 13:16:55

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

You will never win the chikuin argument here, Henrique.

But I'm with you in spirit... smile


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#21 2010-10-01 17:23:25

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

edosan wrote:

Henrique,

Just stop smokin' that Whacky Tabacky, and you'll be fine.... smile

fouw wrote:

If no one else can confirm, maybe Henrique and I should get a check for delirium tremens or so.

I think these post can explain the big grasshopper that appears from time to time on the bottom of the flute while I play... ehehhe

Taldaran wrote:

You will never win the chikuin argument here, Henrique.

But I'm with you in spirit...

Not really wanna win anything or trying to impose something, but I would like to hear that more people feel it , and we are not in delirium tremens... I am not saying it helps in sound or that it's a important thing to feel while playing shakuhachi (even because while really playing, we really feel enough vibes from holes.) or whatever, just that it happens.... anyway, I like it, and I can feel it, so if other people can't, I'm sorry because we can't impose it to them as a need.


In flutemaking, I noticed that when working for Ro yet without holes, a flute bad balanced will vibe in less spots than when the flute is with Ro almost ready to continue the flute work with other holes...  it's like if we can feel were the air is "shaking" more inside the tube and making the bamboo move, and then even say where the air is stagnant, not flowing all that easy... but that's for sure my wacky mind kidding with the game and of course I do not trust in it as a regular technique!!


Good to trip with you guys!


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#22 2010-10-02 00:14:45

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

I am asking a question of the more learned.   The term "chikuin"? I have seen many times to describe very expensive high quality flutes as in David Wheeler's website and Peter Hill's,  describing a flute as having much chikuin as a very desirable trait and character,  referring to vibration in the flute and or the music or notes produced.     So if this is well known used shakuhachi terminology and used by the knowledgeable then why is it that only Kees and Musgo are the ones feeling it and it is sometimes used as a desirable selling point to advertise a fabulous flute?    Then chikuin does exist as a feature heard and felt on a flute,  mostly the high end ones.  What say , all?


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#23 2010-10-02 07:38:11

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

OK, if you guys feel the good vibes, then enjoy them good vibes! I guess I have to be satisfied with just making nice sounds...

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#24 2010-10-02 09:09:59

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Well, in retrospect the term chikuin is rarely used,  so it is possible certain flutes exhibit more chikuin, some less, and some very , very,  little measured in hundreths of microns, and most not at all.  But it seems to be a  shakuhachi term of Japanese origin, so someone in the past has experienced it enough to give it a name.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#25 2010-10-02 10:05:37

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3225
Website

Re: Toby, please make one of these for shakuhachi!

Entering Nelson Zink territory here.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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