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This is my first post so I'd first like to thank Ken, Perry, and everyone else who been so kind as to share their knowledge here.
While my goal is to make jinashi flutes it has quickly become apparent that some degree of bore work is inevitable. I've been avoiding it up until now but it's time to bite the bullet.......... I know that traditionally "ji" is used for this but I was wondering if anyone can recommend any other commonly available material that can be used as an alternative..... Thank you!!
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TaipeiShak wrote:
I know that traditionally "ji" is used for this but I was wondering if anyone can recommend any other commonly available material that can be used as an alternative..... Thank you!!
Welcome to the forum Taipei. Sometimes you can adjust the bore through subtraction only. If that is not possible, here are a few ji paste substitutes.
- Bamboo dust and glue
-Two-part epoxy (automobile bondo, etc.)
-"Fix All" household plaster
- Newspaper soaked in glue
Hope this helps.
Ken
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Thanks Ken. Yeah, ideally I would do it only through subtraction. But, unfortunately........, if you subtract too much it may be necessary to add some back....... Maybe once I get better at it I can do it all through subtraction.....
Thanks for the recommendations on materials. I would guess some of those are easier to work with but might not be as durable or prone to shrinkage/cracking, and others would be very durable but tougher to work with. I guess I'll have to do some experimenting and see which ones work out the best.
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John Neptune tunes his jinashi flutes with blobs of two-part epoxy placed via the end of a long stick.
Of course, he's had lots of experience doing this, and he's a great player, so he can use the wet-newspaper technique to
determine what needs to be added where.
He then usually applies a black finish to the inside of his flutes. Some of the ones I've seen look like a gnarly cave inside.
Sure to sound great though.
eB
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edosan wrote:
John Neptune tunes his jinashi flutes with blobs of two-part epoxy placed via the end of a long stick.
Of course, he's had lots of experience doing this, and he's a great player, so he can use the wet-newspaper technique to
determine what needs to be added where.
He then usually applies a black finish to the inside of his flutes. Some of the ones I've seen look like a gnarly cave inside.
Sure to sound great though.
eB
Yep, Neptune is a shakuhachi making genius. He can make perfectly tuned flutes with just a few dabs of ji here and there. He also knows how to fix problems on other flutes by putting little pieces of electrical tape inside the bore. One of John Singer's best sounding flutes has a little piece of tape inside it that Neptune put in a strategic location. Amazing. Stabilized the ro.
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Yep, Neptune is a shakuhachi making genius. He can make perfectly tuned flutes with just a few dabs of ji here and there. He also knows how to fix problems on other flutes by putting little pieces of electrical tape inside the bore. One of John Singer's best sounding flutes has a little piece of tape inside it that Neptune put in a strategic location. Amazing. Stabilized the ro.
Yeah, I was at Mejiro in Tokyo a few weeks ago and they had some of his flutes in stock - I played 3 of them - a 1.8, 2.4, and 2.7. They all had a smooth but thin layer of urushi inside the bore - so thin that you could still see where the nodes had been removed. They all played great, but the 2.4 was not straight at all - it had quite a twist/corkscrew to it, which surprised me. He really knows what he is doing.....
By the way, he is giving a jinashi flute making seminar at Mejiro in Tokyo next week. I had flight tickets and was ready to go until I had to cancel due to conflicting business travel........ Arghhhhh....... I guess he does the seminar at Mejiro once a year - usually during Golden Week.
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TaipeiShak wrote:
I was at Mejiro in Tokyo a few weeks ago and they had some of his flutes in stock - I played 3 of them - a 1.8, 2.4, and 2.7.
Which 1.8 did you play? It looks like Mejiro has a large-hole style Neptune (at 220,000 yen) and a more classically made one at (approx. 300,000). I'm curious about John's large-hole style and how it diifers from more traditionally made instruments.
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edosan wrote:
John Neptune tunes his jinashi flutes with blobs of two-part epoxy placed via the end of a long stick.
Of course, he's had lots of experience doing this, and he's a great player, so he can use the wet-newspaper technique to
determine what needs to be added where.
Even if I found the right spot with wet newspaper, I think I'd have problems getting the epoxy in the same place because I find it extremely hard to judge distances inside the tube. That's why I've put off experimenting with bore repairs/tweaks.
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radi0gnome wrote:
Even if I found the right spot with wet newspaper, I think I'd have problems getting the epoxy in the same place because I find it extremely hard to judge distances inside the tube. That's why I've put off experimenting with bore repairs/tweaks.
Just a guess as I've never made any flutes so far. However, when I tried to track down a possible leak (that wasn't there), I used brightly colored electric tape as a marker. Something like brigth yellow tape bits are easily visible if you look into the bore. I would assume that if they are small enough and you were planning to put a layer of urushi there you should be fine just leaving the marker there and covering it. I find it hard to believe that it would have a major effect in the way the flute plays.
I'll actually have to try how that works once I get myself to buy some bamboo for a silly project. I figured that I'd try what Ken and Brian did with their monster bamboo stick and try to make a flute out of a huge piece.
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radi0gnome wrote:
Even if I found the right spot with wet newspaper, I think I'd have problems getting the epoxy in the same place because I find it extremely hard to judge distances inside the tube. That's why I've put off experimenting with bore repairs/tweaks.
Here's one way to do it which does not involve judging distances inside the bore. While testing with wet newspaper, push the piece in with a long stick. A small piece of foam rubber wrapped around the end of the stick provides enough friction to hold onto the wet newspager piece. Use your thumb and index finger as a distance guide. Eventually they will touch the end of the flute. Once they do, pull out the stick, leave the newspaper inside, keep the same grip on the stick, line up the stick on the outside of the bamboo, use a grease pencil to mark the area where the foam rubber lines up. That's where the newspaper is inside the bore.
You can do this systematically; starting with blind tests inside the bore or by marking the outside first if you have a firm idea of where to test. Once you find the spots, you'll have a map of them on the outside of the bamboo. Then you can remove the newspaper and apply ji paste (or other filler) using the same thumb/index finger distance technique. The photo below is a "map" of bore work done using this method.
KL
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Chris Moran wrote:
TaipeiShak wrote:
I was at Mejiro in Tokyo a few weeks ago and they had some of his flutes in stock - I played 3 of them - a 1.8, 2.4, and 2.7.
Which 1.8 did you play? It looks like Mejiro has a large-hole style Neptune (at 220,000 yen) and a more classically made one at (approx. 300,000). I'm curious about John's large-hole style and how it diifers from more traditionally made instruments.
Wow, I'm looking at the Neptunes listed on the Mejiro site and I can't figure out which one it was. It's also possible it's not listed. I just remember it had a nice dark blackish color to the bell, and seemed to have a large bore I could blow those rapid successions of heavy breaths (hahaha, there is a name for that technique but I don't know what it is - probably because I suck at it......) and it actually sounded passable for once and didn't overdrive into the higher octave. I was really impressed - I recall thinking that if I had the money I would have picked up that flute. If you really wanna know I can write to Saori-san there and try to figure it out. I'll be glad to help if I can - just let me know.
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Mujitsu wrote:
radi0gnome wrote:
Even if I found the right spot with wet newspaper, I think I'd have problems getting the epoxy in the same place because I find it extremely hard to judge distances inside the tube. That's why I've put off experimenting with bore repairs/tweaks.
Here's one way to do it which does not involve judging distances inside the bore. While testing with wet newspaper, push the piece in with a long stick. A small piece of foam rubber rapped around the end of the stick provides enough friction to hold onto the wet newspager piece. Use your thumb and index finger as a distance guide. Eventually they will touch the end of the flute. Once they do, pull out the stick, leave the newspaper inside, keep the same grip on the stick, line up the stick on the outside of the bamboo, use a grease pencil to mark the area where the foam rubber lines up. That's where the newspaper is inside the bore.
You can do this systematically; starting with blind tests inside the bore or by marking the outside first if you have a firm idea of where to test. Once you find the spots, you'll have a map of them on the outside of the bamboo. Then you can remove the newspaper and apply ji paste (or other filler) using the same thumb/index finger distance technique. The photo below is a "map" of bore work done using this method.
Wow, nice advice! I will be using a bit of that cause I did my first 'ji' application tonight and it really is difficult to gage distances in the bore. But I have found out that slight removal of material will definitely change sound. I hate that - remove some in the right place and it sounds better. Remove some more and then it's even better. Just a bit more - and......... it's out again......... It's hard to know when to stop.
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TaipeiShak wrote:
It's hard to know when to stop.
One way to practice is to insert fat newspaper pieces at various hot spots (1/2 and 1/4 points) in the bore. Not to fix anything but just to see what happens. I've found this especially helpful using a flute I already know well.
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Mujitsu wrote:
TaipeiShak wrote:
It's hard to know when to stop.
One way to practice is to insert fat newspaper pieces at various hot spots (1/2 and 1/4 points) in the bore. Not to fix anything but just to see what happens. I've found this especially helpful using a flute I already know well.
Ken, good recommendation - that would be the smart way to get the ability to make predictable adjustments.
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Anyone have some tips regarding mixing non-toxic lacquer and baking powder (the arm & hammer stuff) as a Ji alternative? It sounds like a good idea to me and I'll be trying it shortly but I figured I'd ask if anyone has done it first.
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I have a question about all this bore/tuning stuff. When applying these spot dabs of whatever material to tweak the tuning, is the dab just on the top plane of the bore or all the way around the inside of the bore? and how much of a dab is it? I assume that it varies from hole to hole and flute to flute, but thought I better ask anyhow.
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Benjamin wrote:
I have a question about all this bore/tuning stuff. When applying these spot dabs of whatever material to tweak the tuning, is the dab just on the top plane of the bore or all the way around the inside of the bore? and how much of a dab is it? I assume that it varies from hole to hole and flute to flute, but thought I better ask anyhow.
The dab can be anywhere around the circumference of the "hot" spot in the bore. If it needs just a little it can be just a dab. If it needs more, it can be completely around the bore. It can be used for tuning, but I think more often it's best used for tone adjustment. The exception to this would be for very wide bore shakuhachi.
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KODOAN.COM wrote:
Anyone have some tips regarding mixing non-toxic lacquer and baking powder (the arm & hammer stuff) as a Ji alternative? It sounds like a good idea to me and I'll be trying it shortly but I figured I'd ask if anyone has done it first.
I haven't tried that. "Fix-All" works well mixed with urushi and water. It's best applied over an urushi coat. Fix-All and water alone on bare bamboo will suck the moisture out of the bamboo as it dries. It's available at any hardware store. Maybe other lacquers would work as a substitute for the urushi.
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