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#26 2007-06-15 16:35:46

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

"Namo Amida Butsu!"

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#27 2007-06-16 10:53:42

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Also, this little note, jb:

Shakyamuni Buddha clearly stated in a "Sutta" that the ideal Buddhist polity is a monarchy... rule by an enlightened monarch, known as a Dhammaraja.  That's how Tibet was run until the illegal Chinese Maoist invasion which forced the Dalai Lama into exile, along with roughly 100,000 other Tibetans.  The Chinese ended up "liberating" one sixth of the Tibetan population from their physical bodies, and instituting a policy of destruction that goes on to this day, aided every time an American shops at Wal-Mart, or almost anywhere else worthless Chinese goods are sold.

The Buddha knew that both communism and democratic forms of government are unworkable in an unenlightened society; therefore an enlightened monarch must lead according to enlightened principles.  When the Dalai Lama entered India after escaping - and being the open-minded individual that he is - he took that occasion to institute a democratic form of government for his exiled people... a move that profoundly upset the Tibetan people around him.  Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru was a profound influence in this transition, I believe... as was Mohandas K. Gandhi, the architect of Indian independence.

Personally, I agree with Shakyamuni's original teaching.  All it takes is an honest evaluation of the Nightly News, and a sensitive commune with our natural environment, to reveal that the present widespread social and governmental models fall far short of improving life on the planet in meaningful terms.

My apologies to all readers for making this forum to some degree political, because I don't think it needs to be.  But, since Harry brought the issue of "Zen at War" up, and since other statements were made which echoed limited and ill-researched statements, after a couple days' reflection I decided something had to be said. 

Now... back to Kyorei... Ahhhhhhh...

Last edited by Harazda (2007-06-16 22:05:37)

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#28 2007-06-16 11:12:11

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Taken out of context like that, the Buddha can certainly seem an ass.

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#29 2007-06-16 17:51:32

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Harazda wrote:

Shakyamuni Buddha clearly stated in a "Sutta" that the ideal Buddhist polity is a monarchy... rule by an enlightened monarch, known as a Dhammaraja.

Which sutta was that, Chris?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#30 2007-06-16 18:27:04

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Dang!  I knew someone would ask that!  I'll have to do the research.  I once reviewed a fantastic little book on Buddhist ethics for the Tibet Journal, and I think it was in there... and I'm quite sure I still have the book.  I'll attempt to find the correct reference.  I'll post that as soon as I can...

Chris

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#31 2007-06-16 19:17:53

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Okay, first of all, I'm not a scholar of Pali Buddhism by any stretch, but here's what I can find on that.  The source is The Fundamentals Of Buddhist Ethics, by Gunapala Dharmasiri, The Buddhist Research Society, Singapore, 1986, in the chapter entitled, Buddhist Polity, pp. 96-101.  Referring to the Chakkavattisihanada Sutta, the Digha Nikaya, the Jataka, the Anguttara Nikaya, and the Samyutta Nikaya Dharmasiri writes:

"The Buddha maintained that the ideal type of economic distribution was the communistic ownership of property, and the ideal type of political institution was the democratic system of government.  But, unfortunately, he believed that both these were too idealistic for the common man, because both presupposed the necessity of the existence of a highly spiritually and intellectually developed society where greed, hatred and ignorance do not exist.  Communistic ownership presupposes a society of egoless individuals.  This egolessness cannot be so easily attained because those three defilements are too much embedded in the human psyche.  Therefore, if one needs to see the birth of a communistic society, its progress has necessarily to be coupled with a parallel progress in morality and spirituality.  Democracy also needs a society which is very intelligent, being not swayed by emotions such as like and dislike.  Actually, the Buddha succeeded in practically realising the truth of this possibility when he established the Order of Monks (Sangha) which is completely communistic in economic distribution and democratic in political constitution.

"Therefore, for the society of the ordinary man, the best form of government was rule by a righteous king [Chakkavati, or Chakravartin].  He should respect the ten kingly virtues called Dasaraja Dhamma."

These ten kingly virtues are:

Almsgiving (dana)
Morality (sila)
Liberality (pariccaga)
Straightness (ajjava)
Gentleness (maddava)
Self-restraint (tapo)
Non-anger (akkodha)
Non-injury (avihimsa)
Forbearance (khanti)
Non-opposition (avirodhana)

This is the best I can do to answer your question without having the Sutta Pitaka in front of me to pore over in search of exact Sutta references.  Sorry! 

Chris

Last edited by Harazda (2007-06-16 19:28:07)

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#32 2007-06-16 19:19:13

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

This forum is a benevolent duo-dictatorship and that's why it is such an idyllic place. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#33 2007-06-17 00:01:37

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
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Posts: 1524
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Harazda wrote:

Referring to the Chakkavattisihanada Sutta, the Digha Nikaya, the Jataka, the Anguttara Nikaya, and the Samyutta Nikaya Dharmasiri writes

Okay, so Gunapala Dharmasiri extrapolated his conclusions based upon his readings from various suttas.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#34 2007-06-17 09:20:49

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Yes.  Chris, do you find Dharmasiri's reporting questionable?

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#35 2007-06-17 12:43:14

jb
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Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

hi.

There seems to be an option here:

Buddha recommends absolute monarchy and the Dalai Lama deviated from Buddhism in creating a parliament.  Therefore, the Dalai Lama made a mistake.

Or: Buddha recommended absolute monarchy and the Dalai Lama reached a higher truth and created a parliament.  Therefore, the Dalai Lama is right and Buddha is mistaken.

So we have to decide which absolute, infallible authority deviated from the truth.

Of course, we have no real evidence of what the Buddha taught.  We have what was handed down by oral tradition.  But if you buy into all the assumptions, you have a conflict.  Any system collapses on itself.  You have to bring common sense into play because no system is capable of expressing the total picture.  Dennett is right.  We have to take faith off the table if we are going to discuss religion ratonally.

Regards,

jb

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#36 2007-06-17 12:49:53

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

jb wrote:

Of course, we have no real evidence of what the Buddha taught.  We have what was handed down by oral tradition.  But if you buy into all the assumptions, you have a conflict.  Any system collapses on itself.  You have to bring common sense into play because no system is capable of expressing the total picture.  Dennett is right.  We have to take faith off the table if we are going to discuss religion ratonally.

Thanks for saying it. That's why I basically stick to the Dhammapada. That is full of common sense. You really don't need anything else to be a good Buddhist.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#37 2007-06-17 13:06:20

Kerry
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From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Thanks for saying it. That's why I basically stick to the Dhammapada. That is full of common sense. You really don't need anything else to be a good Buddhist. - Tairaku


I second the motion!...smile


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#38 2007-06-17 13:15:55

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Harazda wrote:

Yes.  Chris, do you find Dharmasiri's reporting questionable?

I find Gunapala Dharmasiri's writings as exptrapolations and not as reportage.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#39 2007-06-17 14:05:58

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Oh, brother.

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#40 2007-06-17 14:49:44

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

I can't wait til we get to the 'angels standing on the point of a pin' part...

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#41 2007-06-17 22:14:56

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

edosan... don't tell me you believe that angels dance on the heads of pins... what it that?... is that Zen?  Doesn't sound like anybody's Zen I ever heard of.  Perhaps the Zen of Madame Blavatsky?

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#42 2007-06-17 22:26:15

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

jb - Sounds like you have a HUGE chip on your shoulder.  I hope your shakuhachi can knock that thing off o' there!  You might want to use a bright, standing mirror to see it clearly... even though there is no such mirror, according to Hui Neng.  Even though there isn't one, I suggest you use it anyway.

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#43 2007-06-18 00:20:43

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Harazda wrote:

edosan... don't tell me you believe that angels dance on the heads of pins...

Um...I don't believe it; I believe that's the point.... smile

To-ing and fro-ing about such minutiae usually serves only to enlighten the pocketbooks of publishers...


eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#44 2007-06-18 00:35:46

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Good... I'm glad to hear that.  I was getting real worried there!  We wouldn't want Zen getting all complicated with... complicatedness.

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#45 2007-06-18 00:52:17

nomaD43
Member
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 2006-07-22
Posts: 96

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

When I was studying Zen at the Providence Zen Center in Rhode Island (Korean Zen) I had often been told that Zen cannot be found in books, the answer can not be found in a book, only by Zazen and training can Zen be found. This struck me as strange, since the founder Zen Master Seung Sang had written many books on Zen. .... HUH?!
So many books talk about Zen, or enlightenment, or Buddhism, telling you how to become enlightened, or what the True Path is, or what Buddha meant by what he was supposed to have said. So many books, so many words, so many thoughts. Where is the Zen in that?
Breathe in, Breathe out.

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#46 2007-06-18 03:20:25

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Zen stick
Ho great Zen Stick on my wall!
When will I pick you up and hit them all wink


PPL you are all going round and round on this one now.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#47 2007-06-18 07:28:23

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

I once did a retreat with Soen Sa Nim  (Seung Sahn)... oh, about 1985 or so.  He was the real deal.  "Why is the sky blue?" he asked.  I sat next to him to eat lunch.  He ate with 110% attention.

Nonetheless, I offer this from Ryokan:

Each moment waking, sleeping
In my grass-thatched retreat,
I offer this prayer:
Hail Amida Buddha!
Hail Amida Buddha!

... a variation on Dogen's...

Each moment waking, sleeping
In my grass-thatched hut,
I offer this prayer:
Let Shakyamuni Buddha's compassion
Envelop the world.

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#48 2007-06-18 10:55:23

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Gishin wrote:

Zen stick
Ho great Zen Stick on my wall!
When will I pick you up and hit them all

Whack away at will, O, moderator!

Please.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#49 2007-06-18 16:18:07

Horst Xenmeister
Shiham
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-26
Posts: 69
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Chris Moran wrote:

Gishin wrote:

Zen stick
Ho great Zen Stick on my wall!
When will I pick you up and hit them all

Whack away at will, O, moderator!

Please.

I am Horst. I am Zen Master. Therfore Horst Xenmeister. I want stick. May I have stick?

Last edited by Horst Xenmeister (2007-06-18 16:29:28)


i am horst

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#50 2007-06-18 17:08:56

Jason
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2006-11-09
Posts: 10

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Wars aren't started by the majority of the people even though they're all commited in our name. Presidents, emperors, bankers, businessmen, these people share in the spoils of war, the rest of us simply lose our lives and livelihood. The use of the words 'us' and 'we' just reinforces the delusion that you, your family, your friends ever wanted to go to war in the first place, or had any part in the decision making process. 'We' don't get the lucrative defense[sic] or rebuilding contracts, or the cheap labor. 'We' are the cheap labor. This idea of a unified collectivism is the reason why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

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